Nia Thomas [00:00:03]:
Hello and welcome to the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast. I'm your host, Nia Thomas. Join me for the last time as we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe in the hundredth episode of the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast. Today we're joined by Dr. Julia Carden, who's the founder of Cardan Consulting and a highly respected executive coach, supervisor and educator. Julia began her career as a Royal Naval Officer, later moving into roles in HR and leadership development before founding her own consultancy in 2008. Over the years, she's worked with leaders and teams across both the public and private sectors, helping them to grow their confidence, clarity and capacity. Her coaching practice is grounded in her PhD research on self awareness, which is really exciting for us.

Nia Thomas [00:00:53]:
A theme that runs through her work with clients and also through her forthcoming book, you are not as self aware as you think you are, which will be coming out in October because I checked before coming on screen. Julia's approach is both developmental and systemic, so she supports the whole person while keeping in mind the complex environments in which they operate. In addition to her consultancy, Julia is a visiting tutor at Henley Business School. She's also an accredited coach, helping leaders to reflect deeply, grow meaningfully and lead with greater self awareness. Julia, it's the 100th and final episode of the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast. So to have another expert whose doctorate focused on self awareness on the show is just awesome. So thank you so much for joining me.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:01:40]:
Oh, well, thank you for having me and what a privilege to be on your hundredth podcast.

Nia Thomas [00:01:47]:
Julia, tell us about your journey from being a naval officer to leadership coaching. How does that journey fit together?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:01:54]:
Yeah, actually I joined as a rens officer. I know I hopefully don't look as old as that, but when I joined, girls were very separate to the men. We had blue stripes, not gold, and we were known as Women's Royal Naval Service. So it changed when I was in. But yeah, the journey into this space. So my last formal job in the Navy was to work in the Admiralty Interview Board where they assess and select potential Royal Naval, Royal Marine officers, medics, dentists and chaplains. And so got very interested in the assessment centre side of hr, then went off to HR consultancy working for some other companies and really started honing in on this assessment and development centrepiece. During that time, did all my psychometric testing qualifications.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:02:41]:
They're feeding back in a very coaching style. They're encouraging you to feedback in a coaching style. That's really what led me into that space. So that was the transition and Then from the leadership development building on all that I had been trained and learned to do, I really realized early on in my HR career that was more a learning and development specialist than a what I would call a HR people resourcing, employee relations type specialist.

Nia Thomas [00:03:06]:
Amazing. So when you talk about self awareness, what exactly do you mean? Because I'm sure listeners and watchers know what I mean. I've talked about it for the last three years. But how do you define it?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:03:18]:
Yeah, I know you, you and I had a conversation because I think we were doing our research about the same. Yes, I mean how annoying that we didn't, didn't know we were doing the research at the same time. So it's a really complex, dynamic and ever evolving construct. I'm going to use the word contract, that's what the academics would call it. So that's the first thing I want to say. And so I'm very conscious of the fact however I define it somehow it minimizes the complexity of what it is. So I it's aware of our, in our inner self, what drives us, what defines us. So that would be things like values and beliefs, our motivations, our needs, our physiological awareness, what's going on in our body at any one time, you know, where the moments of tension or flutters or movements.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:04:08]:
So all of that awareness of our inner self and what defines us combined with how others experience. Experience us. So I talk about the intrapersonal within us and then the interpersonal, how others experience us, those we're leading and manage. I've got a neat little definition I use, but I've also got a pictorial definition which is on my website which I feel is much more rich than just a few sentences.

Nia Thomas [00:04:36]:
We will make sure that there is a link to that infographic in the show notes so that if anybody wants to go and find out more about it, they certainly. Again, so what did your PhD focus on and what were your findings?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:04:49]:
So the main research focus is what is the role of self awareness in the development of the executive coach which you could replace with the development of an executive senior leader if you wanted to. But I wanted to hone it in on coach development. So the first big finding. So I should say that I did three distinct studies and there was, and I did it by publication. So there was a paper associated with each of the studies, but they fed together. The first big finding, which slightly hijacked how deep I wanted to go with the other research was that it was an ill defined and undefined construct within the realms of adult development. So that would be leadership development, MBA work, you know, another leadership development. So it wasn't defined at all.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:05:34]:
The other big finding was that it's used interchangeably with other terms about self like self knowledge and self consciousness. So that, that meant that I then spent the first study defining self awareness within the context of adult development. So I hadn't planned on doing that. So that was the first finding. The I then explored what role it plays in the development of executive coaches and leaders. And the finding there was, what it gives you is this ability to connect with self, who we are. And through connecting with self, we can then connect better and deeper with others. And from a leadership perspective and from a coaching perspective, I always say you can't connect with others if you haven't first connected with yourself.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:06:20]:
So if there's parts of yourself that you're not wanting to confront or look into, then that's going to provide an unconscious barrier to those that we're leading and working with as a coach. So that was my other finding in this deep connection to self through, through self awareness. And then in terms of how to develop it, I sort of had this very naive plan when I started my research that I'd come up with some model of how to develop self awareness and then it go tick and I'd be able to commercialize it and commoditize it and sell it. I mean, how ridiculously naive I was. So there is no one way of developing it. And actually it needs multiple. I. I've referred to it like a jigsaw puzzle.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:07:04]:
We need multiple pieces of that jigsaw puzzle and we need to be moving these pieces of the jigsaw puzzle around. Maybe sometimes a piece goes away and another piece comes in. But that was my other learning that there is not one model and one frame for developing it, which was for somebody who does leadership development and wants to sell it. It was a little bit irritating, but nevertheless that was the finding. And out of the ways to develop it, the biggest thing that we need to do is some form of reflection. But it doesn't have to be. There's lots of misnomers around reflection. So yeah, that was, that was the sort of highlights.

Nia Thomas [00:07:37]:
I think that's amazing. And there are so many similarities as you're talking about. First you've got to define it. Even if you didn't think you're going to have to do that, you have to work it out. What is your definition? So yeah, just like you, I had to do that and trying to work out how people move towards it. I didn't work that out as part of my research. It was only when I was talking to people about the research people were saying well how can I become more self aware then? And it was through my book that I started to put things together and I got a compass whereas you have a jigsaw puzzle. So that's really interesting similarities and differences.

Nia Thomas [00:08:13]:
We will make sure that there are links to your website and your forthcoming book and we'll talk about that shortly.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:08:21]:
Well, and you should make sure there's links to your compass as well because you know it's horses for courses. That's the other thing I learned about developing self awareness. You know, what's your personal learning style, what's what works for you and what works for me now at this time in my life might not work for me future or might not have worked me before. So I think the more people have access to how to develop it the better. Really?

Nia Thomas [00:08:41]:
Yes, definitely. I will make sure that it's there as part of that sharing. In an article you wrote a few weeks ago, you talked about self awareness, self consciousness and self knowledge which you've just mentioned, that this interchangeability, how are they different? How are they the same and does it matter?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:09:01]:
Does it matter? I think from a academic construct, clarity perspective it absolutely matters. If you were a quantitative researcher and you wanted to develop a measure, you have to have that clarity. So I think yes it does matter from an academic perspective for leaders and more practically I think it matters in terms of them getting clear on what self awareness means for them and hopefully provide some sort of bookmark line in the sand for them to think about. So that's why I believe it matters. And like you've just highlighted, we can't develop it if we don't know what it is. So we've got to be clear on what it is first before we even think are we motivated to develop it, which I'd say is the next thing. So the similarities, it's all terms about self. It all is focused on self and how we're showing up in the world, the differences and this is how I've differentiated based on the systematic literature review and research I did in that space.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:10:02]:
Well, self consciousness is the intra personal components of self awareness, the inner bit I values and beliefs, inner motivations, inner needs, the things that define us. So the intra. Now some later leaders who wrote around self consciousness, like some people, two people called Trapnan and Campbell also bought in the interpersonal as well. But I've created real boundaries around that from a to get construct, clarity, perspective. So intrapersonal is a part of self awareness. It makes self aware awareness up with some other stuff. Whereas self knowledge is what I get having done some self awareness work. And for me, self knowledge is the knowledge of how I'm showing up, the knowledge of my biases, my prejudice, my drivers, my motivations and being really honest about them.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:10:52]:
So for me, self knowledge is the output of self awareness. It's the part of doing the work. So that's how I've differentiated it.

Nia Thomas [00:10:58]:
That definitely makes sense. So we've talked about your book very briefly. It's going to be available in October 2025, am I right?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:11:07]:
Yes, 21st of October is the actual release date. It's on Amazon and Waterstones.

Nia Thomas [00:11:11]:
Now before you order. Right. We will make sure that that link is in the show notes. Very exciting. It's called you are not as self aware as you think you are. So what a reader is going to discover in your book, what will be in it that they will want to read about.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:11:27]:
Yeah, it's really interesting because I know you did a podcast with Robert Diggins on highly relational and I remember when he introduced me, he said, oh, this is the, the incredibly self aware Julia Carden. And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Because I think the thing I really want to emphasize in my book is the minute we start thinking we're self aware or we think we've done the work, we're actually not.

Nia Thomas [00:11:48]:
Yes.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:11:49]:
Because there's always new things. And I really love the quote by Pema Chodron, who's a Buddhist and she says we work on ourselves in order to work with and we work with others in order to work on ourselves. Well, if I'm a leader, I've got lots of other people that are going to be telling me something about myself. So it's an ever evolving thing. So I really digest that in the book. But I, I take people through what self awareness is and then I break down each of my components or I call them ingredients because I love cooking. So take down values and beliefs, take down motivations and, and how might you develop that component? And I've done it in a way that if I was the leader and I'd already known I've done lots of work on my values and beliefs. I might dive into how do I develop the physiological awareness that I haven't done.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:12:35]:
There's also some thinking in there around how you might support others in developing self awareness. And there's also some thinking about when self awareness might slip into self delusion, self deception, or hubris. And the reason it's called you're not as self aware as you think you are. As I want to speak to a leader who, who I wasn't working with, I was working with this team and I was thinking actually it's you that probably needs to do the work, not the team. And I said to him, so you know, as a leader, lonely, who do you use to challenge your thinking, to think things through in a confidential way? And he said, oh, I don't need anybody, I'm very self aware.

Nia Thomas [00:13:14]:
Alarm bells.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:13:15]:
You're not. Because I've realized I was on a quest to be more self aware and thought, oh, when I've done the work, I'm done. And I've realized that's not the case. I realized that some time ago because there's all it's. I think it was. Lawrence Barrett talks about it being something like an elusive concept that once we think we've got a grasp of it, it slips out of our hands and, and we have to chase after it again.

Nia Thomas [00:13:39]:
Will of the West.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:13:41]:
Yeah, Will O the wisp. There we go. Lovely, lovely.

Nia Thomas [00:13:44]:
Amazing, brilliant. Well, I'm looking forward to reading your book and seeing particularly how just how close we are and how different we are in our, our ideas. In your book you do talk about how we see ourselves on how others see us. When you're thinking about leaders, how much attention do leaders need to pay to both of those things?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:14:06]:
Oh, massive. Equal and more. And interestingly, when I was doing my research, somebody said to me, well, self awareness can be a very narcissistic, overindulgent activity, which is why on my diagram that helps define it, I've put the interpersonal first. So we're doing it in service of others. So I think you can't do one without the other as a leader because as a leader we are serving others, you know, however you, you perceive it, you know, we are leading up, so we've got to do both. And actually if we don't do the inner work, the intrapersonal stuff, that's when we're likely to easily slip into conflict, inappropriate behaviours and emotions in the workplace. So being able to do both is really, really important and spend time developing both. But that's the other reason we're not as self aware as we think we are.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:14:57]:
Because to get real awareness of our interpersonal others experience us is really hard as a leader because if I ask my team, they're going to possibly tell me what I want to hear because they want to get promoted, they want to keep my favour, they want me to like them. They might be people pleaser themselves. I'm only going to hear what I want to hear because I'm going to delete, distort and generalize anything that doesn't quite fit with my perspective. So it's really hard to get get accuracy on that. Which is the other reason I say you're not as self aware because there's always fuzziness and messiness around that.

Nia Thomas [00:15:31]:
Yes, definitely. One of the best things that I've done is a feed forward and I think it comes from Marshall Goldsmith, I think he coined the term. But that feed forward, it's almost like a360 but probably a little bit more low key.360 but it gives you the opportunity to ask those questions of what could I do differently next time? What would you like me to do more of and less of and it's less of that unpicking what you've done and quite frankly you can't do anything about it because it's in the past and I really like that. And I think it's non threatening for lots of people. I think people still are reluctant to tell you everything because how trusting are they that an organization isn't going to out them? Yes, I definitely think that's a really good tool to use that feed forward.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:16:17]:
Yeah. I've said in my book the two things as a manager to be asking your team is what do I do? And you can choose the adjective around that. What do I do? That you appreciate or value or supports you. And then they've got to ask the second one, what do I do? That irritates you, hinders you, gets in the way, demotivates you. So you can pick the adjective but there's got to be both sides of the coin there and then listen to the results and just accept them and then go away and think about them, not respond in the moment.

Nia Thomas [00:16:46]:
Yes. And I think that is a really tough one and I think you have to know how you respond and how your emotions play out and be ready for that feedback and know how you're going to look at it more objectively. What do you need to do to give yourself that space, to give yourself that objectivity and. And that's hard.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:17:06]:
Yeah, yeah. And I highlight actually your reaction to that. Your response to that is giving you more data on yourself.

Nia Thomas [00:17:13]:
Yes. All the time. Yes. And I always say to people give me 48 hours and I can come back to you. But certainly the feedback that I've had from the feed Forward exercises are really valuable and as a team, three of us did it together and as a team we really made changes that were very visible and very obvious to our team based on the feedback that they'd given us. And that was really valuable. I think you say self awareness is something we never fully reach and I absolutely agree that that journey I think is something that we are always on. How can leaders stay open and curious to that journey? Because you've already mentioned things like, well actually I've done the work, now I'm self aware.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:17:56]:
I mean, I think first of all they've got to see the value in developing self awareness, I think, you know, and they've got to have some motivation and desire to do it, I suppose, and a degree of acceptance that we're not perfect. So I suspect there are some narcissistic leaders out there that because they think they're brilliant already that they don't see the need. So I think, you know, there's got to be some acceptance and desire there first of all. And I would encourage them to work with, you know, a thinking partner that doesn't have to be a coach, but somebody who's gonna, you know, hold the mirror up as appropriate and offer them some reflections. And the other simple way to stay open and curious is perhaps just pose themselves a couple of questions, you know, why did I do that in that meeting today? What, what led to me to, to take over or get angry or whatever it is. And I think just, just hold the question. You don't have have to answer the question. It'll be percolating through your system all the time.

Nia Thomas [00:18:57]:
Yes, you mentioned writing things down there. What are your thoughts on journaling?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:19:02]:
Yeah, I think journaling's great and it doesn't work for everybody. So I'm very conscious the fact that journaling in a free for way, journaling in a way that's unedited, can give us great access to our unconscious. We can get glimpses of our unconscious. But I think if writing's not your thing, it's not going to help. So maybe a mind map or drawing an image or you know, speaking or doing an audio or doing a poem is, is also valid but some form of reflective activity definitely is, is supportive.

Nia Thomas [00:19:39]:
As you were talking there, I'm thinking coaching feels like the, the out loud version of journaling. Does, does that make sense? Does that resonate with you?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:19:52]:
Yes, it can. And a coach can also offer reflections back on what they're hearing, how you're showing up. A coach can also ask questions to challenge what you're writing and say, is that true? Is that really what happened? You know, if we had the other person in the room, what would they be? So they can, a coach can help you see it from other perspectives. They can use some exercises to do that. So there is an element if it could be journaling out loud. But you've also got the challenge and the let's look at it from some other perspectives going on as well. Doesn't have to be a coach, a therapist equally valid in this space with.

Nia Thomas [00:20:28]:
The people that you have worked with over the years or since 2008, you've seen lots of different clients and people who've come to coaching. Have you found that the, that people have got to the point of saying, actually, do you know what, maybe I'm the one that needs to make the change here. And I ask that on the basis that I've spoken to a few people who are coaches and we talk about this. What if somebody isn't self aware when they come to coaching? How. Where do you start to get them to a point where they can come back to developing self awareness so that they can move forward again?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:21:03]:
So I use the analogy like, are they a customer? Are they a customer for coaching? Are they a customer to do some work on themselves and are they a customer to do that work with me? So sometimes what you find with people coming into the coach space because their line manager or their organization have sent them is they're still at the shop window deciding whether they want to come in the shop or not. Yeah, they may have got into the shop and be looking at stuff on the rail, but they're certainly not at the counter paying for it now through the development of the relationship and through the coach's capacity to hold their not moving forward or they're tentatively exploring they may end up at the counter. And I say may because they may not. And you know, I spoke to somebody today who does want to do some work, but because of their personal situations has not got the capacity to be in that space. And they were really honest about that. So there's something for me as well and I, and I talk about in my book about doing this work with compassion to yourself. Have you got the capacity to do it right now? Because you may not. And, and that's fine as well.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:22:14]:
You know, it has its downsides, but I think that's, you know, have we got the capacity to do it?

Nia Thomas [00:22:19]:
I often talk to people who have members of staff who maybe are very challenging. Maybe performance is something that's tried to be tackled but actually they're not getting very far. And people are sent to coaching. How do people respond to that? Are they, are they in a place where they can move forward or are those the very people who aren't even looking in the shop window yet?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:22:46]:
I think it depends. I think important to them in their life right now. I think there's no one fixed way on that. And maybe, maybe they, maybe you only nudge the door open with them and that's still good work. But they may not be ready. And also, you know, those, it's really interesting when people come with their team member that can't change is underperforming, very difficult, challenging, whatever it is, they always want to change that other person. What are they going to change in themselves?

Nia Thomas [00:23:16]:
Yes.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:23:17]:
You know that lovely Winnie the Pooh quote about Pooh Bear kept bumping down the stairs and if only you could stop bumping for a moment and find another way.

Nia Thomas [00:23:26]:
Indeed. And you can't change others, you can only change yourself.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:23:29]:
Yeah, 100%. And you know, I accept that some people are incredibly challenging to manage and lead and probably don't want to be in that organization or in that job or working with that leader. And the leader may have tried everything but what accountability are they taking for how the relationship is and the unconscious dynamics? You know, a question I often use and I say first response, best response, and it's taken from a well known coaching supervisor, Robin Showett and he just says, what would happen if you're on desert island together? Well, you know, if I, the leader respond to say, well, we've been upside down, not talking. Well, that's the unconscious dynamic of that relationship.

Nia Thomas [00:24:09]:
Hey, yes, absolutely. That's a really good question to ask, isn't it? It really cuts it down. You mentioned the question earlier. How do people start to develop this curiosity, why am I behaving like this? How can people start to build those kind of things into more of a habit in terms of their leadership practice?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:24:33]:
How can you build a table? It's like anything. I think what I would be interested in is how do people build their own habits and their own, you know, what traditionally works for them? You know, some people like a reminder, don't they? On the fridge door, on their phone. So what, what helps you build a habit? So I think that's the first thing, getting clear on what works for you in that space and keep it really simple and, and light. So just, you know, Marshall Goldsmith talks about a daily question his book triggers. You know, what got you Here won't get you there. So maybe just start with a daily question that's light, not going to lead you to be. Take you into some negative deep place, but it's just light enough to just, oh, yeah, how often did I do X today?

Nia Thomas [00:25:16]:
Or what?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:25:17]:
What was the impact? Did you know what I mean? And maybe have a daily question for a week or a month or however long is appropriate for you. But start simple. But think about what. How do you normally build a habit that works? And I know there's that been that book is it Atomic Habits talks about start, start building something into your daily thing that you already do, like while you're cleaning your teeth or, you know, if you have a meditation practice or if you journal every day or, you know, or if you go for a dog walk in the morning, what could you insert in your daily practice that you're already doing?

Nia Thomas [00:25:51]:
Yes, doing something simple I think is a really good idea. You describe coaching supervision as a sand pit to play in rather than a courtroom to judge, which I really like. Can you explain what you mean by that? And how does coaching supervision fit as part of being a coach?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:26:12]:
Yeah, let me start with the latter question first. So coaching supervision is about us as coaches reflecting on our own practice, reflecting on how we're showing up with our clients. Where are our habits, where are our trends, where are our default settings, you know, where perhaps are we a bit blind to. So it's a space to reflect on all of that. That quote, a sandpit in which to play rather than a courtroom in which to judge is from Robin Shoette, who really took supervision from therapy into coaching. He also says, a mystery to embrace rather than a problem to solve. And for me, in coaching supervision, what I want to work with coaches is how can we hold uncertainty? How can we explore multiple perspectives? How can we perhaps, you know, when we were kids, if we built a sandcastle on the beach and we turned it out, we just, and it was rubbish. We just stamp on it and build a new one.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:27:11]:
But as adults, we're like, oh my God, you know, that sign cost. Like, you know, it's got to be perfect. And we then can't see other perspectives or other ways of being playful or. And so there's something for me about let's be a bit playful and ridiculous. I often say, if you had a really absurd, ridiculous idea or if you could say anything in the world, what would you say? You know, and often those things are not absurd and they are things that you could use and say to your clients. But we put limits on our rules around how we think we can behave. So that sound pit in which to play is let's build some other soundcastles and if they've got a bit of a rough edge, well, let's just see what that that's all about.

Nia Thomas [00:27:50]:
That's interesting. Yes, that different perspective. And you're right, as leaders we are very much trying to get everything right. And of course we have moved on from the days of, of hero leaders or we're moving on from that time. But I think we still do our best to get things right and we get very offended when we are told that it's not right. So learning about that feedback but having that curiosity to accept that feedback gives you an opportunity to be better.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:28:20]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's something for me there about leaders. If I could embrace that uncertainty, sitting with uncertainty, how many other more options might come available? And I think sometimes as leaders we get hooked into feeling that we've got to have the answer, we've got to have it now, we've got to be perfect all of the time. We can't make a mistake. Well, none of that's human, is it?

Nia Thomas [00:28:41]:
Absolutely.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:28:42]:
That's an AI robot.

Nia Thomas [00:28:44]:
Yes, I agree. Your book gives readers practical steps to grow their self awareness. So before you go, can you share one way with us that will help leaders develop their self awareness muscle if they want to. If they've never done anything before and they want to start this practice, something to help them kick it off.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:29:04]:
Yeah. Start by asking yourself a simple daily question. You don't have to write it down, just have it in your head. You know, Nancy Klein always says we think better in the presence of a question. So start, start with, with a question. I also, you know, if you want to then get a bit more serious about it, you know, pick one of those ingredients and then make that a bit of a focus. And I think that's a great starting point. Really brilliant.

Nia Thomas [00:29:29]:
Julia, what is next for you and Cardan Consulting and your coaching work and what is next in your sphere of self awareness and self aware leadership?

Dr. Julia Carden [00:29:39]:
Well, first of all, my own self awareness. In fact I was having a conversation today with somebody I work with my own cage supervisor, but also been working with therapists. I'm but my therapist and I've been on a journey for three and a half years. I'm about to change somebody new. So there'll be some work to do there. So we'll see where that leads to with a much more Jungian perspective. I want to really get some work on unconscious around dreams and symbols and stuff so that's my personal thing also personally for me and my own self awareness is about trying some new things I. I was read but I'm told myself this is my own belief which is we'll see whether this holds on that I'm rubbish art so I'm going to try to do some painting we'll see that goes.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:30:22]:
I'm going to go to a paint and sip. So that's my own journey at the moment then with regards to card and consulting I have a bit of a wish to take the principles of coaching supervision when we reflect on how we're showing up as a coach into the leadership space and work with small groups of leaders about them reflecting on their leadership practice. So we call coaching a practice, we call therapy a practice but let's think about leadership as a practice and how can you reflect on that space? So maybe working with groups I think that's going to be challenging with people from different corporates and companies because of sharing stuff and what have you but that's, that's a desire I've got and I'm sort of mulling over how to make that happen. Book writing perspective. No more complete books. I think I might. I'm looking at potentially editing a book with somebody else. I haven't really got all my thinking straight on that yet.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:31:14]:
I've just co written another academic paper around continuing personal and professional to bring more of an element on self into our professional development space. So that's. That's what's happening at the moment.

Nia Thomas [00:31:28]:
Wow, that sounds really interesting. Especially that bringing leaders together to have that opportunity and that space to think about leadership as a practice. I think that is really interesting. So, so I will make sure that there is a link to both your website and your LinkedIn profile. So if people want to find out more about joining that group or those groups wherever they may be, that would be something that I think watchers and listeners would be really interested in. And just a supplementary question whilst I'm thinking about it. You've done a PhD, I've done a doctorate PhD. Same thing.

Nia Thomas [00:32:02]:
When you came to the end of that, did you have this overwhelming desire to find another one and do something else? No, just me.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:32:11]:
No, not do another PhD. And I said I was never ever going to do any more research ever again. But I have just agreed to work with a colleague of mine, Elizabeth Cross and we're going to be exploring what value do coaches place in coaching supervision and doing some qualitative work there. She's leading the research, she's taken the lead, but I'm going to be her research partner. So having said I was never going to do any research, I also said I was never going to write another academic paper. So I've just ticked that off and now I've done a bit of research. No, don't want to do another doctorate. But I think the books filled that void a little bit in giving me the space to sit, think about concepts and write them down.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:32:56]:
That sort of filled some of the stuff that I quite enjoyed about the PhD. The reading, reflecting on that, then what that meant and then writing about it. The book has done that. So I'm wondering once the book's out, whether I've noticed that void a bit.

Nia Thomas [00:33:09]:
A bit more maybe. Book 2 wow.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:33:13]:
I'm not going to say that.

Nia Thomas [00:33:15]:
I think Never say never.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:33:16]:
Yeah, never say never. What about you going to do another doctorate?

Nia Thomas [00:33:20]:
Probably not a doctorate like you. A similar sense of I need to do something, but who knows what. But I have promised myself that I will do a second book that will focus on the nine behaviors of the Self Aware Leadership Company campus. So that has been percolating for a little while. I had hoped to get it out by 2026, but who knows what the world will allow me to do. But there is, there's a glimmer of a plan, so maybe we never know.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:33:46]:
Co writing yes.

Nia Thomas [00:33:48]:
Well, who knows how. How the world will. Will take it and yeah, who knows what will happen between now and 2030. Julia, I'm really pleased that you were able to join me and that we could have this conversation that both of us have really studied in depth, Self awareness and we're putting it together with leadership and what that means to leadership practice. It's been brilliant having a conversation and I'm really looking forward to reading your book when it comes out in October. All of the details will be in the show notes for watchers and listeners. But for now, Julia, thank you so much for joining me.

Dr. Julia Carden [00:34:21]:
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Nia Thomas [00:34:24]:
Thank you so much for joining me. Over the last three years. I hope you've enjoyed all 100 conversations with thinkers across the globe about Self Aware leadership. This is the last episode of the Knowing Self Knowing Other podcast, but you can keep up to date with my weekly blog by subscribing@ksko.co.uk. a very big thank you to all of the guests that have joined me. Their contribution to the discussion about Self Aware Leadership has helped help to create kinder, more respectful and creative workplaces right around the globe. And of course, a very big thank you to you listeners and watchers for tuning in. Looking forward to joining you on your learning journey.