Nia Thomas:
Hello and welcome to the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast. I'm your host, Nia Thomas. Join us as we discuss Self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. Today's guest is Ruth Hallett and she's an expert at turning bold ideas into reality. Ruth began her career at KPMG and has since led transformative change across commercial and public sectors. With over 25 years of project and program delivery experience, she's got a very impressive portfolio. That means she's worked with Virgin Atlantic, Barclays, Marks and Spencers, the police, National Health Service organisations, local authorities, a range of charities and the Welsh Assembly. She's got a first class degree in political science, a postgraduate diploma in marketing and certifications in Prince 2 and managing successful programmes and Scrum Mastery.

Nia Thomas:
So she brings together theory and practice. Since 2003, she's run her own consultancy, she's held a managing director role in a mountain bike clothing company and she served as a trustee for two charities. She's also a leadership coach, mentor and trainer. Ruth's proudest achievement is including delivering five new drug treatment centres in Wales and that really focuses on patient outcomes and building a business case for a modern pathology facility in Bristol which places genomics at the core, which is pretty interesting. And she supported charities with their strategy planning and rolling out digital systems. So I'm really looking forward to talking to Ruth today about how she builds strong teams, how she leads with self awareness and how she drives that people centeredness as part of that technical and process element that she is so well known for. Ruth, it's lovely to have you on the show today.

Ruth Hallett:
Thank you for having me.

Nia Thomas:
So tell us, how do you blend that really academic and technical training that you've got with your people centred view? Because I'm lucky that you and I have had lots of conversations and you do talk a lot about how people fit at the centre of everything you do.

Ruth Hallett:
I think it's really interesting because early in my career I was very much being trained within an accountancy firm. It was very much the technical kind of element and I was really, really skilled at the kind of how you organize the work, how you break up the work. But one of the things I found, and I remember running a workshop with, I think it was 15 different chief execs from across various NHS organizations and we were agreeing the priorities and I was running the workshop and it was. And I thought they're all going to walk away and do something different and. And whilst they would agree in principle, their actions didn't line up and I thought you know what, I don't have any tools in my toolbox to really manage this. And I then went on, I suppose a real journey of kind of what other tools can I add into my toolbox? Which means I can be a more effective leader, a more effective facilitator and really I suppose deliver the outcomes for patients rather than just doing the technical piece of the jigsaw. And I think I kind of went on that, you know, that journey of change and that really has meant that I'm more successful at delivering what's, what's needed for people through that process.

Nia Thomas:
That sounds like a real moment of self awareness at that point where you said you can do all the technical stuff but actually there's, there's a people element here that unless you change how you operate, you're not going to get the impact you want. Tell me about that moment of self awareness. What, what did you discover and how did you discover it about yourself?

Ruth Hallett:
I think I was working alongside a guy who'd been a product owner for, within Dell and he was great, he was a bit older, kind of nearing his, the end of his career but he was so skilled and we just had some brilliant conversations. He was a fantastic mentor and really just as we were just sort of sitting, having a coffee, kind of reflecting after one of the sessions that we just needed to change our approach and maybe think about different skills and tools. So I would say it's Martin Harris, he was instrumental in really thinking that through together.

Nia Thomas:
And that's interesting because that reflective practice is something that I talk about all the time in terms of self awareness, that unless you have that reflective opportunity and that feedback, you don't then recognize your impact and you don't. For me, the way I describe it is regulate your behaviour but it's actually changed the way you do things so that you get a different outcome.

Ruth Hallett:
Yes, absolutely.

Nia Thomas:
So you've mentioned your delivery of training and facilitation and I'm very conscious that when you're training it's very different to when you're delivering a service and you're managing people on a day to day basis. And I'm quite interested when you're delivering training you're, you're always on, you're the focus of attention, all the eyes in the room are watching you. How do you maintain your self awareness in that moment? And I asked that on the basis that there have been plenty of times when I've been in training, got had a few moments of reflection and, and almost gone into panic and you then you have to regulate yourself and get back into the mode because you're still standing at the front. How do you do that? Self awareness in that moment so that it doesn't dysregulate you or throw you off track.

Ruth Hallett:
I think it's just being comfortable with change and being flexible. And I think being a facilitator first and then a trainer has probably been quite helpful actually. I'm just reflecting back. I watched it actually was a trainer when I was at kpmg, but I think it was that ability to be flexible. When you're early on, you're kind of nervous about the content or nervous about how you might come across. But facilitation is not about you. Facilitation is about everybody else and being very focused on everybody else and creating space for thinking. And with training, sometimes things come up and maybe you can adjust.

Ruth Hallett:
So some of the training I do, which is like how to run effective online meetings, some of it is about how you go with plan A and plan B, having a bit of a. If the tech doesn't work and you're having it, you can have a complete panic, oh my God, the tech isn't working. Everyone's going to be like bored, waiting while I'm faffing around. And then you're starting to think about yourself. I'm very much like, okay, well the tech isn't working, that's fine, let's just pop the answers in the chat. So having that flexibility to kind of do different things based on, you know, and that does come with experience, but also there are tools and techniques and I do when I'm training people, just kind of get them to think about, okay, if this doesn't work, what is your alternative? Have you sent the slide deck to somebody else? Have you got that plan B back up just in case something doesn't? It doesn't go according to plan, which it doesn't always.

Nia Thomas:
So planning and preparation is the key to help you not panic in the.

Ruth Hallett:
Moment and be flexible with it and roll with it and kind of say, okay, well this isn't working, we'll skip on to the next thing. Or we've tried this and trying, it hasn't worked, so we'll try something different and that's okay, it's not a failure, it's adapting.

Nia Thomas:
Yeah, definitely. So in terms of self awareness, what does it actually mean for you? If you had to define it, how would you describe it?

Ruth Hallett:
So I would say if I'm taking on a really big job where I'm managing a team and managing a big program. I always make sure I've got an external coach. So I have got built in reflection time and when things are feeling like they're starting to overwhelm, I can be like, Virginie, can you, can we have a session? Because I need to think this through without that emotion spilling out onto other people and having a safe space to do that. Because as a leader you often don't have, you know, your team aren't your friends, they are people you work with and you're there to support them and you don't want to be offloading on them. So I think it's really important to have an external place to have that conversation. And I often become friends with people after I've finished working on a contract somewhere. But I'm really trying to be careful around those boundaries whilst I'm. Whilst I am there because otherwise it can look like there's preference or, you know, you prefer somebody to another.

Ruth Hallett:
So. But I'd say the self awareness piece is very much about having that safe space to do the reflection and with somebody else. And for me, I like to think things through with somebody else whilst I can do some reflection on my own. I find it more helpful when I'm thinking it through with somebody else.

Nia Thomas:
I think that's a really interesting way of thinking about working because when I talk to people, reflection is something that you organize for a short period of time. But the way that you describe having an external coach built into your practice is quite interesting. In terms of your conversations with other leaders, what would you say to them about doing this as a matter of their business as usual?

Ruth Hallett:
Well, my solution isn't going to necessarily always work and work for other people. So for me it's about again, giving people options, giving suggestions, getting them to think about if they're under stress, what do they do. So quite often if I'm working in, well, I'm normally working in change. And quite often things where I will say, well, they've been trying this for 30 years and they know what the answer is, but they can't make it happen. So I often say I pick up the projects that no one else wants to or people have found really hard to do. And so I'm often working with people who are, I would say, in quite challenging situations because the change has been needed but it hasn't been able to be delivered. And that's causing stress often for the staff involved with that because you haven't been able to move things. And so I will always say, well, what works for you, what other things have you tried? But then sometimes I'll say, would it be helpful for me to put my mentor hat on and offer up some different ideas or different solutions and then you can maybe build that into your thinking.

Ruth Hallett:
Because sometimes people get stuck and that's okay. I mean coaching can be very purist in terms of if you, if you know the answer, someone's really struggling, there's no harm in putting your hat on and saying, would this, you know, would you like some different ideas from me? And they can. And I'll be, it's absolutely fine to say no, I want to think this through on my own. Or actually say, yeah, that's a really something that might be helpful.

Nia Thomas:
Yeah, I think that's an interesting way of, of being very open about changing hats. Yeah, that's really important. You talk about teams, where does sort of emotional intelligence, self awareness, that people centricity, how do you really harness that to make sure that you are building a very strong team? Because as you said, you often go in and manage projects where things have been tried and tried and you're not getting things over the line. So how do you work on that people element?

Ruth Hallett:
So I always think it's important if you can have the opportunity to meet people on a one to one basis and have some kind of semi structured interviews at the start. I find that really helpful because it gives me an opportunity to understand where people are at. Always kind of bringing together the team really early on and do some work together at the beginning because everything's always urgent, urgent, urgent, We've got to get this done, we've got to get this over the line, whatever. And actually I find if you spend a little bit more time at the beginning working on the people piece before you get into the doing piece, then actually you've got a method for resolving conflicts which might arise as you go later on down the journey. So I always start with some workshop sessions where we talk about what our strengths are, what we've done. Quite often these people have never worked together before. They might have come from different backgrounds. I don't know where they've worked before.

Ruth Hallett:
I've done random things like run a mountain bike company. Who would have known that if people don't ask? So it's about those different skills and I try to elicit what skills are, but also what would people like to develop skills wise? So you know, a project working on something different can be a real opportunity to work on something different. So if I understand they would like to stretch into this area well, we might be able to create an opportunity to allow that to happen during that. So I'll always spend at least two or three kind of sessions at the beginning with the team to agree our ways of working. Okay, if things start to go a bit pear shaped, which they will at some point in the project, how are we going to raise that? How are we going to resolve that together without it getting kind of scratchy or personal?

Nia Thomas:
And I often talk to people about talking about talking about it and that's exactly what you've described there. And it's interesting. I've been to a few job interviews recently because as listeners and watchers know, my career is shifting and I'm moving from one thing to another and people are often asking me the question of what happens if you've got stakeholders who've got different agendas, how do you bring them back, back together? So if you've done all of that work at the beginning and say six months into a project, you're doing really well. But actually things are starting to slide and you're seeing that personalities are starting to get a bit fractious, how do you bring people back together later on down that line?

Ruth Hallett:
So I'd say when you're at the beginning, I'd normally agree our ways of working and the behaviours. So how would we like to behave when it's all going well? How would we like to behave when it's not going so well? And actually if you're doing a check in every six weeks on that, then actually you can adjust as you go. So hopefully it never becomes too tricky and it's just built in as a routine whether it's working or not, because then you're not having to do something different or do an intervention because something's now, you know, because there is a friction there. So I think it's, if you've built it in, it becomes less problematic. Also the other thing, as I would say, is that if someone has an objection, there's normally some reason why something that's driving that. And actually key thing for me is to go and have a chat and go and have a listen. What is, what's driving that uncomfortableness or why are they raising the objection? And they might not be raising it in a way which is helpful to the group or for other people. But actually normally there's a grain of truth in there or something which is driving that, which actually think maybe we do need to adjust this or change this or do something slightly different based on that piece of.

Ruth Hallett:
And it is just A piece of feedback and I've experienced that lots when we're doing clinical changes. You know, they'll be raising an objection. There will be something that actually we haven't maybe thought of. So it's really important to listen and adjust. And I say it's not changing your mind, it's improving the answer, if that makes sense.

Nia Thomas:
Yeah, definitely. You've coached, you've mentored, we've worked with people who are leaders in their own right while leading teams. How do you have the conversation with those individuals who maybe aren't very confident in having challenging conversations or don't know where to start in terms of talking about talking about it? How. How do you help shift them to go from just doing the thing to having that conversation about how do we work together to achieve the thing?

Ruth Hallett:
I think it's starting with sometimes I'll just share the fact that I totally get doing the thing. And I remember very early on in my career I had, when I was working at kpmg, I had a guy from London come down and was like, you need to do this planning thing. And you know, I was like, I'm just too busy, I can't be bothered. And actually I described that it, I at the time felt like it was like an additional ask, but actually it made things less stressful. So sometimes sharing a story can be helpful, but actually going from their perspective, understanding what their stresses are, understanding where they're at. But I'll also say there's quite a, you know, strong body of evidence and if, if people are into evidence based practice, which is kind of where I'm at, there's good rationale around creating psychological safety, building trust, those foundational things. And I'll quite often point them and say, well, you don't have to believe me, but why don't you just go and have a listen to. These are the books or podcasts or whatever, their method or way of, of gathering information so that they can kind of see, oh, there's some different ways of doing things.

Ruth Hallett:
Because I think I was chatting with some the other day and they were like, well, I've kind of got my way of doing it. And it's like, well, you can change it and adapt it and add another tool into the toolbox. You're not saying that thing is no longer valid, but you're saying actually in this scenario maybe that thing isn't working, so maybe we'll add something else in a little bit extra or different about evolving rather than throwing everything out and starting totally over again a lot of.

Nia Thomas:
What you said really does resonate with what you said very early on in our conversation about that flexibility and adaptability. And it seems to really feed through the things that you've just been saying. If we think about ways of working now I know you are a Scrum qualified Scrum master. How, how are we adapting our way of working to be more agile, to be more flexible? And I guess I ask that on the basis that I come from organizations that are quite bureaucratic. My background is in the public. We do things in quite a structured way. But I think when we went through Covid, Agile working really came to the fore. But what's your experience of it? How is it looking? How is it feeling out there right now?

Ruth Hallett:
I would say it's quite interesting because I'm part of a kind of Scrum community and go to like a regularly to the Scrum Exchange in London. I'm part of a lovely agile community, like a support network. Basically we go for breakfast, we have a WhatsApp group. So what I love about that community of people is if I've got a challenge or something and being self employed and kind of being primarily working with just my husband, it can be a bit isolating. So I really love the fact I can pop a question out on that WhatsApp group and someone will go, I'll meet with you to have a chat about that. Or actually have you tried these techniques or. So I think there's a real richness to the Agile community where people are really up for kind of sharing and it feels like my people, if that makes sense. Going back to your question around bureaucracy, I think it's really important.

Ruth Hallett:
Often there's this like I suppose a rub between prints and program and project management and agile, which is much more about continuous improvement, much more about ongoing product, the whole product life cycle and value. I don't think the two things have to be in conflict. My view is that in large organisations you do need to have some governance and you do need to have that framework. And so rather than seeing that as a bad thing, it's just you just as a working in the sector, you just need to understand where those points are. You know, I've been working and supporting a piece of work in the NHS that will need to go through health overview and scrutiny committee that requires MPs to have a view, that requires councillors to have a view, it requires the public to have view that is perfectly valid. Good. It will improve the outcome, but it does take time and it isn't us sitting in a Darkened room, just quickly responding to stuff. So there is a kind of process you've got to go through.

Ruth Hallett:
But local level, on a day to day basis you can absolutely employ Agile. You can absolutely. The way you work and the way you're responding and the way you're improving on a day to day basis you can absolutely apply those principles and really think about things creatively. And sometimes you will have to write a detailed document. But Agile doesn't say don't write any documentation, it just says that personal interactions are, are more important. So it's just about trying to get that balance right. It's not one or the other for me they're kind of complementary and we, we need, we need both.

Nia Thomas:
And that's something maybe that people have to get over their fear of thinking that they're doing something that is anti Prince and if their organization is prince too focused. But as you say, it's about why can't we use all the tools that.

Ruth Hallett:
Make things better, use the right things that get the thing done. It doesn't really matter what it's called. I think people get way too hung up on that. And again, I'm part of the service design and UX UI community as well. User interface, user experience. And again, every single kind of area has its own language where they, you know, and actually the pull the right tool doesn't matter which one it's from. Do the thing which works for people.

Nia Thomas:
Yeah, definitely. And listeners and watchers. If you want to know more about Scrum, particularly there. I had conversations early on in the podcast with Gunther Verheyen and I think there are two different podcasts that if you want to go back and have a listen, if you look for Scrum in the search bar, you will find it when you're on the podcast. So if I ask you to define scrum in 25 words, what is it? Because I think we, we talk about Agile on the basis that we've talking, been talking about it for a long time, but I'm not sure everybody does know what it is and particularly Scrum. But so if you had to define it very quickly, what, what is it?

Ruth Hallett:
Well, Scrum is part of Agile. Scrum is just a way of working. It's about making sure you've got those different people involved in that kind of triad of decision making. And it's about the Scrum Master should be part of the Scrum team. So you are one of the team. You're not a thing that kind of drops in. I suppose A project manager often is described as not a doer, whereas a scrum master can be a kind of facilitative role as well as doing. And often to be fair, in the public sector there often is enough resources for different types of roles.

Ruth Hallett:
So actually it's fine to be kind of doing a bit of both. Your job is to support the team in the way that they work and whatever that needs to be done. Your job should be about creating self empowered teams. And the idea is that people, you're not directing the work, you're facilitating others to be able to organise themselves, to be able to take that work on. And actually your role should diminish over time. And the role of the product owner is really important in this mix, which is. And again, you use language and people like what the hell's a product owner? Basically it's the person who advocates on behalf of the people who are using the thing and helping to prioritize what gets done based on the things which would add the most value. And sometimes that voice is entirely missing on projects we're not really close enough to what's going on in your pure prints world.

Ruth Hallett:
There's a lot of talk about the task, but not so much about the outcome. And the idea of having again, because it's often employed in a. In a software setting, you know, the idea of working software being the kind of primary driver. It's the working thing, whatever the thing is in my head, it doesn't have to be software, it can be something else.

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Nia Thomas:
You founded your consultancy business about 2003 and you led lots of different ventures and you've crossed sectors and crossed organization. What are the things that are coming out for you that create leadership? Almost. If we had to have a leadership passport that went across everything, what are the things that people need in their passport?

Ruth Hallett:
I think it helps to be passionate or charismatic about the thing, whatever it is. Again, because I work in lots of different sectors, but being, you know, genuinely caring about the people that you're trying to make a difference to, those people regard, whether they're a clinical leader or management leader. And again, I personally believe you need both those or subject matter experts. That kind of desire to want to do the right thing and to make a difference is the thing which I think underpins everything. And then being able to listen, genuinely listen to what people are saying and then adjusting and adapting based on that, true listening.

Nia Thomas:
If you're working in an organization where things are getting a bit complex, they've got a particular challenge and you're. You're leading more of a turnaround, what does it feel like or sound like or look like when people suddenly find that passion? How do you know you've gone from a team that's really not gelling to a team that has found that passion to help them move forward?

Ruth Hallett:
Once you start to hear laughter, okay. I think we often think work has to be serious and work has to be boring. Actually, do you know what? We're there quite a lot of the time. Let's enjoy it. There's nothing wrong. I mean, I ran a Lego series play workshop today. There's nothing wrong with those things about having creativity, unleashing people's creativity and having some excitement and having a bit of a laugh. You know, teams that are doing well because they're laughing and joking and actually that means that they trust each other and that means they feel safe and that means they're enjoying their work.

Ruth Hallett:
And I think we need just a bit more fun at work and stop taking everything seriously. Well, everybody's under pressure. It can often be really unpleasant. I Feel so, feel so deeply at the moment for my colleagues in the NHS who are kind of going through restructure, it's not nice, but those things can be done in a human centered way. And quite often, you know, I've had to, in certain roles, had to make people redundant, but it's a. You keep the conversation going. What do they need? What can you help with? Get as many skills as you can under your belt because transferable. We've got a reducing working age population.

Ruth Hallett:
So there will be jobs. They just might be different jobs. What can we do to help people find their next thing and support them through that process?

Nia Thomas:
Yeah, and I definitely echo what you say about supporting our colleagues in the NHS who are going through a really difficult time. LEGO Serious Play. I'm really interested in this. I've never been to one, but tell us a little bit about them. What is it all about?

Ruth Hallett:
So what I love about LEGO Serious Play over other facilitation techniques, and I do do lots of different things, is particularly when something's emotional or something is because people care about their work. And that's cool. But sometimes I find it difficult to express that because we don't think that having emotion is kind of okay at work. You know, we've all got to be stoic and just crack on with it. But actually what I love is that it works for both the introverts and the extroverts, and it's a creative process together. So I will get. Encourage people to do kind of individual build, to kind of get confident. And I always say you don't have to be, because I sometimes work with tech teams who are absolutely well into their Lego and then their backgrounds.

Ruth Hallett:
They'll have all sorts of, I don't know, various things from, I don't know, Star Trek or Star wars, whatever, in the background. But I always say it doesn't have to be precise or absolute. It's about the creating a metaphor, creating a story and using the metaphors, you know, so a red block could mean anything, it could mean stop. It could be a car, it could be whatever you want it to be, but it's about being able to tell that story kind of collaboratively together and by everybody contributing and working on that model. One person might take the role of finding the right color blocks, one person might be building it, one person might be the ideas person. You're working together as a team to kind of make a build together and then you're building something as a. You know, we did a piece of work the other day where we were looking at how it currently works and then thinking about how we might want to change it. So you build the current state and then we're building a, you know, how we'd really like it to be.

Ruth Hallett:
And obviously the next session will then be on. Okay, how do we do that?

Nia Thomas:
The listeners watchers. If you are interested in finding out more about Lego Serious Play, do get in touch with Ruth. I think that's a really interesting way to facilitate ideation or problem solving or strategy or whatever it might be. So I'll make sure that Ruth's contact details are in the show notes. So what about you? How do you make sure that you, you are emotionally grounded, that you're being mindful and that you're caring for yourself throughout all of this work with all of these different organizations. How do you make sure that you stay well?

Ruth Hallett:
So I've got a lot of kind of exercise or sports I enjoy. So for me, walking with my neighbor in the morning with her dog Zach is really helps me. We kind of set the day and set the world to right before you and start the day thinking about what we're going to do. So support each other, which is lovely. I cold water, swim quite a bit, which I find really helpful when I'm getting a bit stressed. It really reduces kind of, I suppose, inflammation in the body and just chill. But also being in nature, being in. Because I'm normally swimming in a lake or a various random body of water anywhere.

Ruth Hallett:
My husband's always like, oh, are you gonna get in that? When we're walking somewhere? And then I also mountain bike, so. And mountain bike was my, probably my first passion. I absolutely love being in the woods, being with friends. I'm not a crazy downhiller and I never will be. I've always. People will say, are you going to compete? Or whatever this. Maybe not now I'm 50, but a bit earlier on and I was like, no, I'm cool just being in the woods. But what I love is you have to focus on what you're doing because you can't think whilst you have to concentrate on what you're doing.

Ruth Hallett:
So if you're going fast and technical downhill, if you stop thinking, you're probably going to fall off.

Nia Thomas:
Yeah, definitely. Amazing. I really like the sound of that. Cold water swimming and outdoor swimming, I think it's, it's wonderful. So if you haven't tried it, give it a shot. So if people want to liaise with you or be coached by you or work with you or have you come and do Some facilitation with them. How is the best way for people to get in touch with you?

Ruth Hallett:
So I'm primarily on LinkedIn. It's probably the way I get most of my work. I've got a website as well, which has got my email address on. But yeah, LinkedIn is probably a good place to have a start and have a chat and I, I normally say to people, let's just have a conversation. I don't. And work out what you need and then I can develop whatever mix of stuff you need to kind of get whatever the outcome you want.

Nia Thomas:
Brilliant. We'll make sure those links are in the show notes. So, as your parting golden nugget for leaders out there, what is something that you would like to share with people before you go to make sure that they are looking after themselves and that they are moving towards a positive resolution, going through all of the tricky stuff that's going on in organizations and businesses right now. What would you advise people to make sure that they can get through it and get through it?

Ruth Hallett:
Well, I'd be really mindful not to take things too personally. And it's really hard when you're feeling vulnerable yourself. But some of this is not about you, not about how good you are, not about the value you've brought in the past. This is about a set of circumstances that are entirely outside of your control. And actually look after yourself because no one else is going to be doing that. So make sure you've spoken, you know, understand what you're, you know, with hr, what, what the offers are, make sure you are looking after yourself and chatting with other people. Don't hold it all yourself. And lots of people are going through the same thing at the moment.

Ruth Hallett:
And actually if there are free offers of training and there's loads of stuff out there, there's brilliant meetups, there's brilliant conferences, there's lots of things that are free. Make use of those resources. Look, I've got friends. So there's a lady called Jo, she is offering free well being sessions. So there's lots of people knowing that this stuff is tough, having been through it in other places before, you know you will get through it and actually you might find you find something actually you enjoy even more. So sometimes it can be an opportunity for pushing you to do something you might have done a little while ago, but actually, and it won't feel like it at the time, but afterwards you reflect back and think actually that was the right thing to happen at that point.

Nia Thomas:
That's amazing, Ruth. Thank you so much for finding the time to come and have a conversation with me. It's brilliant as ever. As I've said, we will make sure that there's all of the links are in the show notes, plus those free wellbeing classes that you said that Jo is running. I'll make sure that those links are in the show notes too, for today. Thank you so much for joining me.

Ruth Hallett:
Ruth. Thank you. Pleasure.

Nia Thomas:
Thank you for joining me on today's episode. I hope you've enjoyed the conversation as much as I have. If you want to keep up to date with what's happening with knowing self, knowing others, head over to my website, ksko.co.uk.