Nia Thomas [00:00:04]:
Hello, and welcome to the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast, where we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. I'm your host, Nia Thomas. Join me as we talk to today's guest.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:00:15]:
A very big welcome to today's episode. I'm delighted to introduce Lindsay Bingerman. She's director of Shaw Academy consultant and executive coach. With over fifteen years of experience, Lindsay specializes in integrating psychometric data, technology, and AI to enhance leadership team and organizational development. She's known as a personality explainer, and she helps individuals and teams to understand how their personality shapes relationships and performance. She previously led emotional intelligence based leadership programs at Telios Leadership Institute, and she now serves as faculty on the ICF accredited Telios Coaching Essential Program. Her expertise spans emotional intelligence, executive presence, and people data with experience across government, health care, professional services, and nonprofit organizations. Lindsay, a very big welcome to the show.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:01:14]:
Thanks, Nia. So happy to be here, and it's not often you get to hear one's career summarized like that. So thank you for the warm welcome.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:01:21]:
So tell us a little bit about your career. It seems that you've got the tech side and you've got the psychology side. How did those two things come together?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:01:29]:
Yeah. It's been a really interesting journey. So, you know, for the well, first of all, I discovered Myers Briggs in college and was like, oh my word. What is this thing? I felt like I had a a manual for myself. And so from that point on, really sought, like, how can I use this in my career and and then spent the first, you know, ten, fifteen years in consulting and and coaching and really supporting people and teams and organizations to especially, you know, around emotional intelligence to develop self awareness and positive relationships at work and positive cultures? And from that work, I connected to my current company now, which is, you know, a software company that integrates psychometric data, AI, and technology into an app. And so it's it's kinda funny. I'm sitting here, you know, now, like, twenty years into my career, like, oh, how did I get here? You know? Because it's such a different world as you take something. And and in this kind of business world, this go to market world and technology from where I used to be, which was all about leadership programs and sitting together and doing a two hour introduction as each person checked in.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:02:37]:
And now I'm in this kinda, like, intense technology world, which has been an incredible education. So it's just been, like, a a wild journey where I'm I'm sitting here kinda wondering how I got here, but also feeling like in some ways, I've been preparing my whole life for this job because of how it aligns so perfectly with my interest over the entirety of my life.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:02:58]:
So tell us a bit more about how you use the tech and particularly, I I guess we're all interested in AI because we're all talking about it right now. How does the tech fit with the psychometrics? How do we get from I guess what we're all used to is either a form or an online form that you you fill out all of the boxes. How does that work with the tech?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:03:19]:
Yeah. So it works really beautifully and seamlessly. And and like you're saying, for a majority of the past, you know, twenty, thirty, forty years, people have been doing these assessments in organizations, but a lot of times they're on paper or they're it's a PDF, and you'll say, like, hey. You know, do you have your team's data or your data? And they'll say, oh, yeah. It's in my desk drawer, or it's in a folder on my desktop. And, you know, and that's great. It's it's helpful information, but what we're doing now is integrating that psychometric data, putting it in an app, putting it in your in your hand so that you can use it not just like, oh, that's interesting. I'm a rat or I'm an owl, but as a real living, breathing dataset that can be used and leveraged in powerful ways, especially in organizations.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:04:06]:
So So we're kinda moving from that, like, insights piece to action and using the technology, using the algorithms to tell you, well, based on this, here's what you need to work on based on what you told us about you. And then also, here's this other person's data. Here's how you guys need to interact together to be more successful. So it just takes some of the mystery out of the relationship building phase, especially as we're in dispersed remote work setting where, you know, you could easily only spend a few hours a week live with a colleague you're working with regularly. So it really just helps kinda like that we call speed the relationship.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:04:46]:
You talked a lot about using psychometrics when you're in an organization and about the relationships. I spoke to Nancy Parsons a couple of episodes ago, and she also works in the psychometric sphere. And she talked a lot about using it for recruitment. Is that something you do? What are your thoughts about it? I know I've spoken to lots of other people who have said, well, does psychometric pigeonhole people? How do we ensure that we get the uniqueness of people when we're using psychometrics?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:05:16]:
Yeah. It's such an interesting topic, Mia. And and one we have to, like, kind of trod carefully, I think, as people who are in this field. And I think in some ways, you know, I'm a little familiar with, Nancy's work. And in some ways, this dataset is it's very predictive. And so, you know, we can often say, like, somebody who has these preferences is gonna be happy and successful in this role. But in other ways, I don't ever wanna see people be put into a box or kept out of a role that they could be successful in because of their data or their, you know, preferences. And so I think it's a really tough question for us to wrestle with around how do we use these responsibly but still stay open to how people can evolve, grow, and change.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:06:06]:
And this is where, you know, like, my background as a coach, I really hold the belief that, like, humans have the incredible capacity to change in ways that we never thought we could. And I've seen colleagues who were incredibly introverted and could never stand in front of a group, grow and evolve, and now do public speaking on a regular basis as part of their job. Or people who are big picture, hated spreadsheets, manage the fine details of of a project. And so I think it's just a it's a a an interesting and important conversation around how do we use these things to predict job success, but also not to keep people out of things that or take them out of the running for things they could be successful in.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:06:47]:
It's interesting. So watchers and listeners, if you are interested in psychometrics, finish watching or listening to this episode. There's also the episode with Nancy Parsons. Susan Muss and I also talked a little bit about this, and Alison Reynolds and I talked about MBTI. So you got four episodes here where you can go back and have a have a listen to other people's thoughts around psychometrics. So we are interested particularly in self awareness and self awareness as it aligns to leadership. From your perspective with your knowledge and background in psychometrics, what does self awareness mean to you?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:07:25]:
Yeah. It's it's interesting because when you look at the emotional intelligence model, you know, self awareness there is really defined as emotional self awareness. So in this moment, am I, you know, able to name the emotion that I'm feeling and then, you know, manage it productively? But I think to me, it means a lot more than that. It's it can be personality dimensions. It it is the emotional piece. It's, you know, what are my my preferences? What are my interests? Like, what are my values? What do I care about? You know, all those to me are different dimensions of self awareness. And I think the person I I've seen do the best research on it recently is a woman named Tasha Urich, and she describes it as internal and external self awareness. So just that idea of, like, internal being all the things I just described.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:08:08]:
How do I sit down with myself, be reflective, and and become aware of all these things that are in inside myself that only I can know and put my finger on? And then external self awareness, which is what is the impact that I have on other people? So when I walk into a room, you know, what energy do I bring with me? How do I make others feel? You know? How do others feel about themselves when they're with me, which are all so important and actually feels very rare sometimes that people truly carry that awareness with them of the impact that they have on a room.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:08:41]:
Yeah. Most definitely. That that definitely aligns with my view of self awareness that it isn't just reflection. It's about that recognition of your impact on others. And, also, for me, it's about regulation of your behavior, which I suppose is a lot about what you talked about earlier in terms of once you've done your psychometric test, you have all this information about yourself and now you can make some choices about any changes you want to make.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:09:05]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that's what self awareness is all about is that it gives you choice. So, okay, this is a strength. You know? When am I gonna lean into it and dial it up? Or, you know, this is a an area where I know I need to to work on or, like, who am I interacting with? I'm interacting with another, like, powerful dominant kind of personality type person. I can just kinda, like, let that side of myself roll. Or am I interacting with a colleague that needs a, like, warmer touch or appreciates a softer approach? And then how do I moderate that?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:09:36]:
Definitely. At Sure People, you focus on human potential. What do you mean by that, and how do you help people lean into it?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:09:45]:
Yeah. I mean, human potential for me, it's it's about it's about self actualization. It's about where does the person wanna go? What do they wanna do with their life? So it's it's less of an objective thing. Like, oh, this person could be this and and and defining success objectively and more about what do they want, what do they value, and then enabling them to understand themselves so that they don't get in their own way. So it's about leveraging strengths. It's about, you know, understanding where they could get in their own way so that they're able to to grow and do that. With the the psychometric information, you know, that gives the the awareness of, like, oh, this is how I'm wired. And I think sometimes it's interesting because people will have a sense of themselves, but then sometimes when you see the data represented objectively, it's like, whoo.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:10:33]:
There's been these moments of instantaneous awareness or, like, seeing themselves sometimes just represented by the strength of the graph. Like, I'm thinking about one woman I was working with who came out as, like, a 90% feelings decider. And there was just this moment of like, oh, yes. That is I'm so aware of that, and that is kinda part of what's causing paralysis for me in my life right now. And, you know, so I can figure out how to navigate through that because I see it and I understand it in a different way. Or somebody seeing that they're, you know, 40%, which is high on our scale for avoiding conflict. You know? Okay. I I see and and understand what's getting in my way.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:11:16]:
And then having the technology and the AI, the algorithm there, it just takes it to a different level because now you have not just you saying, like, oh, I see this and I can help myself, but you have this science based algorithm that's saying, based on what you told us about yourself, here's what our algorithm says are the three or four points you need to intervene on to become even more effective. So for example, for my personality, it's very people oriented. I'm cooperative. It tells me you need to be more assertive. Or I'm high I'm intuitive. I'm big picture. You need to be better at execution and planning. So it's just really lovely because it keeps it objective in a way and really precise.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:11:57]:
And then when you integrate AI, also, like, the piece that can help then coach me on how to get there, it's a really dynamic combination of technology and AI that we have today.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:12:08]:
Interesting. Colleagues and I are talking a lot at the moment about looking for different jobs, and we read the, personal specification. And a number of us have said, yes. I can do this, this, this, and this. Oh, but I can't do that, and therefore, I'm not gonna apply for the job. Mhmm. How does what you talked about potentially help us to get over that? Because, actually, if we meet 90% of the job description, does this last piece matter?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:12:36]:
Mhmm. Well, it's so interesting. And what comes up to me first when you talk about that is, like, in our personality model, there's some personalities that run confident, and there's some that run a little more hesitant. And so I feel like, you know, what I kind of saw and understood and there's gender in there. There's cult you know, there's so much that's also layered on top of this. But I think in what you were describing, there's a lot of people I work with who run that more hesitant dimension where it's like, you know, working or coaching with them around that, it can be helpful to know that this is something that might be a bigger issue. And so to help them turn that alarm that's going off, like, oh, you might not be you you're at 90%, but you're not at a %. Like, okay.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:13:19]:
You're not hesitant. So in your case, how can we help you turn that thing off and move boldly forward?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:13:25]:
Yes. I like that. Moving boldly forward.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:13:27]:
Yeah. Definitely.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:13:30]:
What are some common misconceptions about leadership that you've encountered? And maybe this hesitancy or imposter syndrome is something that that's you're coming up against.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:13:41]:
Yeah. So I think, you know, again, over the last thirty, fifty years, a lot of this stuff is relatively new coming out of nineteen fifties, sixties, or even later. I think some of the classic misconceptions about leadership have really been, like, I need to be the smartest person in the room. That's all that matters. I need to be tough. I need to make tough decisions and really show my dominance when in reality, all the research over the last thirty so years is pointing to emotional intelligence as the differentiator between good and great leaders. And there's this exercise I've done over the last ten years in a lot of these leadership workshops where it's called best boss, worst boss. You ask everybody, what was the worst boss you ever had? You know? And it's so it's classic.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:14:21]:
These stories come up, and people still hold trauma from their old bosses in major ways. And then you switch and say, okay. Who who's the best boss you ever had? And it's so interesting to me because without fail, people will say they helped me. They could see potential in me before I could see it in myself. Like, they were patient. They enabled me to grow. They understood. They were flexible.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:14:43]:
It is really rare that anybody says even, like, they were the smartest person I ever you know, sometimes, once in a while, you hear that, or they were incredibly great strategists, or they were really good at time management. No. You never hear that stuff. It's always about how they made the person feel. And so I don't mean to over index and say it's all about being soft and kumbaya and, you know, no. You still have to make tough decisions and have hard conversations. But, really, I think what's so interesting is just at the end of the day, like, that's the relationship. Your ability to support people and and help them grow is really that what it means to be an inspiring leader and what makes a great leader.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:15:26]:
We often talk about poor performers, and a number of coaches that I've spoken to will often have people come to coaching, and they have to work through psychometrics because somebody has sent them to coaching without really tackling a performance issue. So you talked about using psychometrics when you're in an organization. How do you use them with all performers? Because you what you don't want to do is to use shock tactics, I imagine. How do you use it to move those people to that point of awareness so that they can have that moment to move them forward?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:16:06]:
It's a a really interesting question. And, you know, with coaching, as I'm sure you're aware too, it's like, it has to be client led. Mhmm. So it's a really tricky situation of kinda saying, like, what do you care about? How do you wanna grow? And, like, also, oh, we have some feedback here. This is something you could be better on. So how do we kinda, like, get you to to lead it and want to to grow? And I think the whole school of thought that I've really been trained in is around a model called intentional change, which is about, you know, switching from this remedial approach of, like, this isn't working and how do you fix it to, well, who do you wanna be as a leader? Who do you wanna be as an employee? What do you wanna accomplish in in this life or in this role? Okay. And now once you know that, what's getting in your way? So I think that's kind of the approach I would tend to go. And then I think when it comes to the tools, the psychometrics, and whatnot, we've seen that, like, when you do the kind of self awareness piece of the psychometric prior to doing a three sixty or prior to having some of these conversations, people are actually more receptive to the feedback because there's a sense of like, oh, yeah.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:17:16]:
Now I know how I'm wired, and I've accepted and agreed with that. Now I see how people could perceive that I don't care about them, or people could perceive that I'm disorganized or whatever it is because they they kind of have a little bit more self awareness. So some of those defenses go down.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:17:34]:
Oh, that's an interesting way of thinking about it that actually there's a there's a a way that you can get to that level of of awareness that actually helps people break down those barriers so that you don't have this sense of you're clearly wrong and I'm right, and I'm gonna continue performing badly. But actually, there's an acceptance along the way.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:17:55]:
Exactly. And it's like, oh, it's it's less threatening. It's not like, oh, I'm a bad performer. I'm a bad employee. It's just, no. I have a preference for spontaneity, and therefore, I'm, you know, like, less structured. So it just helps depersonalize some of that.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:18:09]:
What kind of work are you doing in organizations or with individuals where there is high stress or uncertainty in their roles? How are you able to support them? And and I guess we can never get away from stress. So how do you support them to live with stress in their workplaces or to move on?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:18:32]:
Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that's measured in our psychometric is, like, how you shift under pressure and then also your conflict style. So these are two that are really key in creating, you know, especially awareness around in those moments when the heat turns up. What does it look like? How might people experience you differently? How might you experience yourself differently? So I think that's the first step is just creating some awareness and like, oh, how do I change? How do I shift in times of stress? But then I think kinda moving up to the group or team level, this kind of stuff is so helpful because when the heat turns up, it's more we get more stressed. We get more black and white in our thinking, and we get much more, prone to outburst to not managing ourselves and to having relational hiccups that are often at the times when we can least afford it. Yeah. So I think in those moments, having this kind of data around to say, okay. Oh, I see that I'm under stress.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:19:30]:
I'm gonna take a step back or to have kind of at your fingertips, here's some tips to be more successful when interacting with this other person can really help avoid those moments where, you know, if you think about the relationships being the piping in an organization through which all the communication and information moves through, you know, in a moment of stress, you have a a tense interaction like that pipe gets blocked Mhmm. Often. And we, yeah, we withhold information and we shut down, and we kinda say, well, forget that. I'm not gonna talk to that guy again unless I absolutely have to. And so I think that's where, like, if you can avoid that or use this information to get back in relationship and make the repair really quickly, this is where it can be like a decoder ring in helping people understand what's going on, what the breakdown is in the relationship, and then how to kinda depersonalize it and repair really quickly.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:20:24]:
Haven't you ever had people receive the findings of their psychometric and say, this is totally wrong. This is not me at all. No. I don't believe you. This is just a load of nonsense. What do you do with that?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:20:37]:
Yeah. No. It it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. And here are the three situations where I often see it. One, the the person is incredibly precise in our personality model, and so they're looking at line by line and kinda saying, well, that third word in sentence four isn't quite how I would describe my you know, so there's a little bit of disagreement there. Okay. Also, if people have had a lot of change in the last few years. So there was one woman I was having a conversation with with her portrait, and she was having a hard time seeing herself.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:21:11]:
And I said, well, have you had any change in the last five years? And she said, yeah. I had three kids. Oh. And, you know, so it just led to this conversation around like, oh, okay. Like, she was just a different version of herself and didn't totally recognize kind of how she was showing up because of this massive change. And then I think sometimes too when people are in toxic work environments or in roles where they're really struggling and not thriving, sometimes they've so adapted or they're so operating out of kind of their natural preferences or that it they've lost kinda touch with who they are or what they you know? So in those moments, I try to take people back. Like, okay. In high school or over the course of your life, what are words that people would have used to describe you to try to get back to the essence of how they have historically known themselves to be.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:22:00]:
So if you have somebody who is, yeah, I agree with some of this. I don't agree with everything. How do you coach them to use the learning to be constructive?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:22:14]:
One of the most important principles to me in using this stuff for coaching in organizations is the individual is always the expert on themselves. So you will never find me or hopefully anybody else. I'm sure people saying, well, if you just look at the data, this is who you are. Like, I know more about you than you know about yourself because I have this data. No. So sometimes, you know, if somebody has that reaction, we'll sit together and say, okay. Is this a little bit of a blind spot? Let's explore and let's talk it through. Or is this just something that, like, was misrepresented or came out this way in the assessment, but for some reason, you don't resonate with it even though that's kind of that's what you told us about yourself.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:22:54]:
And that's fine. That's a you know, those we are as humans are incredibly complex. And so while the dataset can be incredibly helpful and there's value in it, we don't hold to it more than allowing for the in incredibly complex human in front of us.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:23:12]:
Yeah. I think that's a a nice way of describing it. I joined a webinar on the Future of Work Scotland, a few weeks ago, and Stephen Morris was on there talking about that challenge between hard skills and soft skills, and I call soft skills relational skills. How can leaders really balance that awareness of the emotional intelligence and the hard skills? And I think a lot of what we've talked about is, though, that softer side, that relational side. But what happens if, actually, I'm supposed to be a technical expert in my leadership role, but, actually, I'm not really aware that my technical expertise is not as good as everybody else? Where does that go if we're talking about that difference?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:24:00]:
Yeah. Some of this I see reflected just in natural preferences in the dataset we have or in in a lot of the policy versions of this in any dataset where it's like some of us are more naturally soft skill people oriented, and some of us are a little bit more hard skill task oriented. So for myself, I'm like a double fisted people person. Like, I'm just, you know, loved listening. I'm I'm curious about people. Where I know that I need to develop is some in some more of that, like, strategic thinking, execution, having difficult conversations, hitting conflict head on. You know? So depending on how you're defining hard and soft skills, I think, versus other people who you know, a lot of our classic leadership profiles, they need to round out more on on some of the softness. Yeah.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:24:47]:
And this can be especially interesting when you layer in gender. You know, I have a very classically female profile. I'm warm. I'm nurture you know, like, whereas I work with a lot of women who have a more typically maybe features that we would more associate with men or masculinity of being direct, bold, decisive, precise. So that can also you know, I'm allowed for the full expression of my preferences, whereas some of my other female colleagues or people of color, you know, a lot of different people we talk to who are talk about how some of us are allowed to express our qualities more so than others. So with the the dataset that I work with, I think it's really more about social emotional adaptive growth is how I would frame it as well. Like, who do I need to become in order to grow in my career and a little bit less about the technical because there's kinda, like, often you're thinking about two different buckets. Like, how do I need to grow and and shape myself differently and become a different type of person? And then there's kinda like, what do I need to learn? So this definitely index is more on the former and less on the latter around growth, you know, as a person, but less about the technical kinda hard skills, which would be assessed in a in a different type of way.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:26:00]:
And I think that's a good thing because you mentioned earlier that, actually, we do focus a lot more on the hard skills and far less on the relational skills. But I think that's starting to tip over the last four or five years, and I think COVID changed us. And it started to to really focus that conversation around relational skills. You mentioned a dataset a few times, and I'm really interested to know you've probably got years' worth of data now. What are these key things that are coming out of your dataset?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:26:31]:
Yeah. So the one I work with is called Prism, and it measures 54 traits and attributes. And, you know, I think we have, like, 10,000 plus Prism profiles now. So it is really interesting to see. We have a lot in health care, and that's where I've seen some of the the trends. And, you know, the first framework is is has four different quadrants, and one of the personality quadrants there is about high power, bold, direct, decisive people. So one of the trends we're seeing is that they, like, rise to executive roles. Like, you'll find them more commonly there, and I don't think it's necessarily because they're more skilled.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:27:03]:
It's just that's where they like to live. They like to be in charge. They like to be authoritative. And then we found that, like, people with the director level or lower were more highly represented in some of the other more cooperative people oriented quadrants, and which again is is not surprising. I think that's just where they feel more comfortable living. But one of the other interesting trends or findings we've started to uncover is that those that bold kind of direct decisive personality type group has a really high threshold for conflict, for stress, and for endurance. And you would think that they would be the ones that were less likely to burn out. That, actually, what we were finding is they were reporting higher levels of burnout.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:27:47]:
And I think, you know, what was going on is, like, the more sensitive group is more quick to say, oh, I think I'm burning out. I need to find other people to support myself, or I need to slow down, or I I need a cup of coffee in my window seat or, you know, whatever it is where that high power group are better, like, it or better worse at, like, turning off their body and emotional signals and just pushing through. And so we'd find, like, they're in the hospital before they're like, oh, you know, maybe I do need to slow down. So it's just kinda interesting when you have this data at that kind of level, you can start to see some pretty interesting trends like that.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:28:27]:
When I did my research, I was interested in self awareness at different levels of hierarchy. And the research the literature at the time was saying that individuals at the strategic level of organizations are far more self aware. When I did my research, people were telling me the opposite, that actually people at the high level were not self aware at all. They would stab you in the back if they could. They would pull the rug from end of you, and this was the general feeling that people had. What is your data telling you about senior people and self awareness?

Lindsay Bingaman [00:29:03]:
Oh, man. It's a great there's so much in it. And, you know, I guess just all first start with just kind of my anecdotal. You know, I think to get to certain levels of leadership, it does require a lot of emotional intelligence, and self awareness is at the heart of emotional intelligence. So it makes sense in that regard. But we also know power can shape and change your brain and make us less self aware. So I I don't feel like I can empirically weigh in on that from our data. I will say again that, like, that bold, direct, decisive personality type is more highly represented at the top of the organization.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:29:38]:
You know, that in any executive group, c suite group, there's gonna be a high percentage of them that are represented there. And I will say that I that group tends to have a smaller radar for emotional data. So I won't say that they're less self aware, but I will say in my experience and what our data indicates is, like, they might be less sensitive to picking up on all the different kind of emotional tremors in the room.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:30:08]:
That's interesting. Yeah. So we really need to keep an eye on what you what the data is saying to you, and maybe we will be having some reports in the next year or two on your data.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:30:19]:
Yeah. Absolutely. That's one of the things in my role that I'm really hoping we can kinda continue to get more from the field and and package and really, you know, share a lot of our learnings as we look at these trends. And that's where the technology and the II are also incredibly helpful in capturing some of this, in more powerful ways so we can intervene and support people better.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:30:38]:
Amazing. Lindsay, I've really enjoyed our conversation. I think psychometric tests are are fascinating, and I think they're a a very interesting tool. And I think they are helpful at a particular point in time, and they do they do uncover your blind spot. And I think we need to go back and revisit our psychometrics because as that person you said you talked about who'd had three three children in five years, a lot can happen in our lives, and we can change, and we become different people. But I think they are really interesting tools, and then there's so much data and so much science behind them that there's just got to be something in it.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:31:13]:
So I'm afraid. I couldn't agree more, Nia. And it's been such a pleasure to to talk with you. Thank you so much for having me and and sharing your wisdom as well in in the conversation.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:31:22]:
It's been brilliant. Lindsay, thank you so much for joining me.

Lindsay Bingaman [00:31:25]:
I look forward to talking soon.

Nia Thomas [00:31:27]:
Thank you for joining me on today's episode where we aim to develop self aware leaders around the globe to generate kinder, more respectful, and creative working relationships through reflection, recognition and regulation. Head over to my website at knowingselfknowingothers.co.uk to sign up to my newsletter to keep up to date with my blog, podcast and book. Looking forward to having you on my learning journey.