Nia Thomas [00:00:04]:
Hello, and welcome to the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast, where we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. I'm your host, Nia Thomas. Join me as we talk to today's guest. A very big welcome to doctor Adam Dorsey to the show today. Adam is a licensed psychologist and a certified executive coach working in private practice. He specializes in assisting high achieving professionals, and that includes tech executives, entrepreneurs, and professional athletes with relationship issues, stress reduction, easing anxiety, and attaining more happiness in their lives. He delivers lively and well received keynotes and training at institutions like Microsoft, LinkedIn, and the California Psychological Association. He is also the host of the award winning psychology podcast, Super Psyched.

Nia Thomas [00:00:56]:
With over 240 episodes, he's featured interviews with everyone from NBA coaches to rock stars to world famous comedians to best selling authors. He lives and works in San Jose, California and is happily married with two children and an Australian labradoodle named Raffy. Adam, it's lovely to have you here.

Adam Dorsey [00:01:16]:
Lovely to be with you, Nia. And I always laugh when I when somebody brings up Raffy. Yes. He he he just the image of him causes me mirth, so I have to laugh.

Nia Thomas [00:01:25]:
It's just so wonderful to have your your fluffy friends around when you're doing work or when you're podcasting or or whatever it may be. So, yes, they certainly do fill a room.

Adam Dorsey [00:01:34]:
They really do.

Nia Thomas [00:01:36]:
Let me start by asking you about your book. So your book, Super Psyched, you talk about four different types of connection. And the first one being connecting to yourself and then that second one being connecting to others. Tell us a little bit more about these two connections because when I read that, for me, it really did shout self awareness.

Adam Dorsey [00:01:58]:
I'm so glad it does shout self awareness. And if you can imagine the connection points as being rippling circles going outward, it starts with the self. And how we connect with ourself really informs all of our other connections. If, for example, I had a really bad flu, it's hard for me to feel who I am or what I'm about. And my capacity to connect with others is also impaired. You know, the expression that hurt people hurt people. Absolutely. When I'm feeling pretty crappy, it's more likely that I will say something hurtful than when I'm feeling in a great space.

Adam Dorsey [00:02:38]:
So connecting with ourselves first and figuring out what our formulas are to feel alive, and I even needed to define the word connection. I consulted with 10 other licensed professional mental health practitioners to help me figure out what actually is connection in the in the spirit with which it's intended. If you look it up in the dictionary, it will give you basically two items, like, almost like chain links connecting with each other or a plug going into the wall. That's okay. That is fine, but it's it's accurate but not sufficient. The words, even in the American Psychological Association, are insufficient. What we came up with was something that brings you alive vitality and life force. And when we're in that space, we're far more likely to be good to ourselves and good to others.

Adam Dorsey [00:03:39]:
We're far more likely to respond to the other circles as we ripple out beyond others, which others, by the way, include our significant others, of course, our children, as well as anybody we might meet walking down the street to borrow from Sesame Street. The people that meet when you're walking down the street, it could be anybody is another. In this case, you and I are others to one another. And then, of of course, it goes out beyond that to the world and to something greater.

Nia Thomas [00:04:10]:
That's, really helpful to imagine those ever ever decreasing and ever increasing circles. Increasing circles, really helpful way of thinking about how we impact people. And if we don't have awareness of that impact, what does that then mean?

Adam Dorsey [00:04:24]:
Incredible, by the way. I I when you say that, it's so evocative. I love the Jungian quote, which I'll paraphrase. Until we make the unconscious conscious, it will drive us, and we will think it was fate. Yeah. Yes. Self awareness and what you're promoting here, Nia, is this is gonna sound perhaps even overblown, but I'm gonna say it anyway. It is the panacea.

Adam Dorsey [00:04:47]:
Self awareness will generate good stuff. It will generate kindness. We will be far more intentional. So I'm so grateful to you for your work.

Nia Thomas [00:04:58]:
Oh, that's very kind. In your TED Talk, which I really enjoyed watching, I think you've done two TED Talks now. Am I right?

Adam Dorsey [00:05:06]:
Correct.

Nia Thomas [00:05:06]:
Yes. It was I think it was your first TED Talk. You explained the situation about men, their specific difficulty in recognizing and tending to their emotions. Tell us a little bit about how men can really develop their self awareness. And you mentioned something called FIP, f I p.

Adam Dorsey [00:05:26]:
Yeah. That was a, three letter acronym that I came up with. But here's the tragedy. Boys are actually born, on average, more emotionally expressive than their female counterparts. But we learn and you see it and you you know it's almost global. It's socialized out of masculinity because insert, you know, misogynistic term here or homophobic term there. And that's what we're told we are being when we're trying to actually access our emotions. So we learn to not know what they are.

Adam Dorsey [00:06:09]:
And the crucial thing before FIP is even described is the capacity to have a taxonomy, a name for the emotion. We need to be able to name the thing to tame the thing. I know that sounds corny because it's rhymes, but it's absolutely true. No thinking person would intentionally put black electrical tape on the dashboard of their car. They need to know what's going on inside the car. And yet we do exactly that, metaphorically that, with our emotions. We cover them up, and we are unable to name what's going on instead of talking them out. Because if you can name the emotion, you can talk about it.

Adam Dorsey [00:06:51]:
Instead, we end up acting it out. And some people even deem that as manly. Like, yeah, you punched that guy in the face. How manly. Well, it's interesting because, many black belts will say the best thing to do in that situation is actually run away because it's not worth getting into the fight and risking getting hurt. I actually heard that from, who was it? It was Jackie Chan. Said that he will never fight someone, because it's just not worth the risk. He's using emotional intelligence.

Adam Dorsey [00:07:25]:
So FIP comes from the idea of, well, we feel a thing. Many men aren't even willing to go there. Then we identify the thing. The so the f stands for feel. The I stands for identify. Identify is coming up with the words and becoming aware of the nuances of emotions and also recognizing that generally we're feeling more than one emotion at one time. Yeah. I I describe emotions as being kind of social creatures.

Adam Dorsey [00:07:51]:
Usually, they like to hang out together. Usually, if I'm feeling happy, I might also be feeling excited, and I could also be feeling a little bit nervous at the same time. So knowing what they are can help us do the p part, which is process it. And processing, it could be an internal event where we just say, okay. I've named it. Good to know. Or it might mean processing might mean, you know what I need to do? I need to do a round of push ups. I need to get this out of my system.

Adam Dorsey [00:08:19]:
It might be something that we don't want there. It might mean I need to call a friend and say, oh my gosh, I'm having this experience. That might mean doing, again, something physical, going for a jog or, in my case, going to one of my favorite places for support, going to YouTube and finding something really, really funny and laughing. Oftentimes just the laughter helps me, you know, process this without hurting anybody. For me, that's a big one. Robert Plant from not far from where you are right now. So asks during Stairway to Heaven, does anyone remember laughter, in Stairway to Heaven? We will have a far greater experience in our own lives as well as in society if more of us are self aware as it relates to our emotions so that we are in the driver's seat of our emotions rather than them being the driver's seat and driving us.

Nia Thomas [00:09:10]:
Something that that I really started to think about following your TED Talks, this challenge that men have in, as you say, feeling their feelings, identifying them, and then processing them, if about 70% of Western organizations are led by men

Adam Dorsey [00:09:27]:
That's right.

Nia Thomas [00:09:28]:
What does that then mean for organizational culture? When we talk about culture, we talk about behavior, and we talk about psychological safety, and we talk about safety, and we talk about burnout. What does it mean if 70% of our organizations are led by people who struggle to identify their feelings and, therefore, maybe self awareness isn't as developed as it could be?

Adam Dorsey [00:09:50]:
The reason I'm laughing is this is our first time meeting and already, like it's like, yes. I've met I've met a relative who I never met before. So, anyway, the first thought I think of is what Amy Edmondson out of Harvard Business School has been studying and researching, and you're nodding because you know about her, and that is psychological safety, which you mentioned. We know that the most innovative corporations are the most psychologically safe corporations on average. Of course, we can always think of some exceptions, but I'm going to also say that they probably have higher attrition and quiet quitting and lower morale. And if the attrition is high, onboarding is very expensive. We know there are certain leaders they're written about who can't keep people. They may be lionized because, you know, they're tough, but they're we're lionizing the wrong thing.

Adam Dorsey [00:10:47]:
If we want the really, really good, amazing companies like the Googles of the world, the ones who create new things, and I know and I I do I know how the sausage is made. I know that not everyone is happy there. Of course not. But I know that their aspirations are to have that on board if we want an end and we're seeing it's it's a growing company. It's amazing. But if you look at any great company, I can virtually guarantee you there's psychological safety there. And that means that they are safe to bring their whole selves. They're safe to make mistakes and recover from those mistakes.

Adam Dorsey [00:11:26]:
I believe I hope this is not apocryphal, but I believe that there was a time when Pepsi and its marketing department required that everyone show up with a belly flop to a meeting, a mistake that they'd made because they knew that if they weren't making mistakes, they weren't trying hard enough. They wanted to create a culture of safety. I also think about the Golden State Warriors, my local basketball team that has been winning a lot over the decade. This year has been a little bit tough. But, the coach, Steve Kerr, who's been on my podcast, talked about his four basic tenets as as he calls them, the four values that lead him as he leads the team. And they include, shockingly, joy, mindfulness, compassion, and competition.

Nia Thomas [00:12:18]:
Okay.

Adam Dorsey [00:12:19]:
And I think that those four are very are are wonderful. First of all, they're authentic to Steve, coach Kerr. Secondly, which and we know that authentic leadership is very important, and authenticity can really only come from self awareness. He's a very self aware coach. Another great coach is Phil Jackson. Again, you know, a a a a meditator, a practitioner of Zen Buddhism really knows who he is. The players love playing for coach Kerr. They love playing for coach Jackson because they are self aware individuals.

Adam Dorsey [00:12:52]:
And so, Nia, what you're doing and I think about this all the time because I have boys, one in college, one in high school. I think about who will be their bosses someday. And boy, do I hope that they got your memo. I hope they are self aware. I think about servant leadership, the founder and the creator of Whole Foods has created a spectacular, spectacular empire of of great high quality stores where people seem to like to work. Trader Joe's in The US, same thing. People just love working at Trader Joe's, and everyone loves the experience of going to Trader Joe's. These are two phenomenal places where the employees appear to be very happy.

Adam Dorsey [00:13:37]:
And there seems to be a lot of psychological safety, a lot of innovation, a lot of creativity. These seem to be just, you know, ecosystems where there is it almost feels like it almost feels biodiverse. It's just, it's it's lovely. They have very high standards. They know who they are. They know that they're not going to let in crap products that are going to hurt people. And they have values around those. And then we've got other leaders.

Adam Dorsey [00:14:06]:
The CEO of Spanx. She has created a billion dollar industry and she's been very, you know, certain ways, very relatable. And I don't know her personally, but the stories are that she's inspired, that she's kind and that she creates psychological safety. I think about Shake Shack. Just an incredible I mean, to think about Danny Meyer, who's the CEO of that, going into a space that is already so saturated. I mean, we've got burger joints coming out our ears, and for him to enter the space and do well is incredible and a testament. I've read his book based on what I've read and based on what he shares. I can only imagine he's an inspired and self aware leader.

Adam Dorsey [00:14:53]:
And the fact that he was able to even write a book like that, the great chef, who created an incredible restaurant empire through Momofuku. I've read his book, Eat a Peach, and he describes the fact that he really needed to become a humble individual. He's very open about his mental health struggles, the areas of weakness that he has, and that he needed to be self aware. And as a result, my gosh, they speak for themselves. I mean, we know sometimes bad decisions create good results, sadly. We can think of bad decisions we've made where we had a good results. We can think of good decisions we've made that have had a bad result. But what we wanna do is consistently make the good decisions because over time, I talked about this with Annie Duke who's a great poker player, and she basically says, we tend to be resulters rather than good decision makers.

Adam Dorsey [00:15:53]:
And what we need to do is be good decision makers. And to be good decision maker, what's a precursor for that? Self awareness. So Yeah. And that would be so where you and I overlap the in the Venn diagram is connection to self, others is at the heart of it, self awareness. And I would even say that both, whether it's connection or self awareness, which in some ways could be interchangeable, particularly as it relates to self, at the heart of it is the precursor to happiness, fulfillment, and well-being. When we live a lie, when we say something that's patently untrue, there are certain studies that indicate that we exert less energy when doing a difficult physical task like bench pressing. So it's pretty incredible, this idea of self awareness as well as connection and the overlap between your work and my work. I I'm just delighted to meet you and talk about this.

Adam Dorsey [00:16:52]:
It's it's really quite solid.

Nia Thomas [00:16:54]:
It's interesting that you're talking about that. Are they almost the same thing, connection and self awareness? My view of self awareness is that it is socially constructed, and that actually we can't be self aware on our own because we need that help of others to give us that three sixty view that we can't see of ourselves. And I also have that view of leadership that it's socially constructed because I don't think you can be a leader in an empty room. So that's very interesting that you've that you're talking about connection and self awareness as having that overlap and commonality.

Adam Dorsey [00:17:25]:
And if I could build on what you just said, Nia, one of my favorite people in the world, doctor Harville Hendrix, who is the creator of Imago therapy and one of the most important contributors to relationship work, He says that all learning takes place in the context of relationship. Yeah. And I think that's spot on. But I also would say that it goes into the third and fourth realm in terms of the self awareness and and the learning because in the third realm, it includes things connection to the world, includes connection to work, art, nature and other other important things. And the only way we get to really know who we are is by interacting with things. Like, if go back to Led Zeppelin. If Jimmy Page didn't pick up a guitar, he would not have known that he was Jimmy Page, the great guitarist. It really took an interaction with a thing, the world.

Adam Dorsey [00:18:23]:
And many of us experienced this at our jobs. You did a doctoral dissertation. This is a very hard task, and I'm convinced. I don't even need to ask you if you loved the work and if it was meaningful. Because the only way you can get through such a hard thing is because it's meaningful and and you love it.

Nia Thomas [00:18:40]:
Right.

Adam Dorsey [00:18:41]:
So and that's another way that you got to know who you were and became more self aware. It's like, oh, yes. As you were geeking out. And then in the fourth realm, as it relates to self awareness, something greater, something greater, even the most orthodox atheist would have to acknowledge that when they go to Stonehenge and they find out the story, they'll say, wow. They're going to be an awestruck state and very kind of overwhelmed. It's so awesome, but awe is kind of a greater than self experience.

Nia Thomas [00:19:13]:
Yeah.

Adam Dorsey [00:19:13]:
And when we're in a state of awe, we've become far less interesting, paradoxically self aware in the sense of self consciousness. We become less self conscious and become more other conscious. We're more likely to hug a stranger, like, when there's a solar eclipse and people were viewing it in Oregon, my my friend, doctor Jonah Patakat, who wrote a book on this, was describing what was happening. People were hugging each other, and they didn't even know each other because they were in a shared experience, and many of whom had to have been atheists. And yet they were having a spiritual experience. So this is not at the exclusion. You don't have to be a person who goes to a traditional religious institution to experience something greater, and we learn more about who we are when we are in an awestruck space. So self awareness and every single aspect of the four connections that I describe in this book, they overlap.

Nia Thomas [00:20:13]:
Definitely. And it's interesting as you're talking there, there is something about self awareness of the self and that movement out into a team or a family or an organization and then into your environment. And the greater the awareness becomes, the more humble you become Because it it moves you to I'm going to hug a stranger, but that's because I have no ego at this point, and I want to be a part of a a wider community. And I I belong. I'm a part of oh, it's fascinating, isn't it?

Adam Dorsey [00:20:45]:
It even gets crazier when you put the brain do a brain scan on a person who's experiencing awe and another person who has just ingested psilocybin, which is the psychoactive element in magic mushrooms. Their brain presentation, the receptors are hitting the same spots.

Nia Thomas [00:21:03]:
Oh, wow.

Adam Dorsey [00:21:04]:
Different stimuli. Stimulus of awe, which makes us say wow, which has been researched heavily, without the exogenous intervention of putting into our system something that is most places illegal, although, it may become more and more legal over time, especially as it's showing promise as an adjunctive, component to trauma, healing and others. So but awe is something we can experience without any anybody telling us not to. I remember in college, I was sitting across from a fellow student. She said to me, gosh, you're so easily impressed. And I thought, yeah, what a what a way to shame my ability to step into awe. But I I I came up with the perfect answer. And I said, no.

Adam Dorsey [00:21:55]:
I just happen to have a very high threshold for appreciation. And I was I was 19 at the time. I didn't have any knowledge of the research and awe. But as I've seen it over time, I felt very and I think that she she actually she was not offended, and she she kinda took it in. She was like, oh, yeah. So as you were saying, we become more aware through our interactions. And for sure, how many times have I become more aware through, you know, my belly flops and my having made mistakes just as recently on Saturday night when my 19 year old enlightened me on something that I won't discuss here, but I was like, oh, that was a blind spot on my part. Thank you very much, Eavan.

Adam Dorsey [00:22:33]:
I needed to hear that. So I get I mean, children my children give that to me all the time.

Nia Thomas [00:22:38]:
And, again, it's about self awareness being in relationship with others. You develop that opportunity to have feedback. And if you take it on board, you reduce your blind spot just a little bit for that little moment in time.

Adam Dorsey [00:22:52]:
That humility will go a long way. I remember the most important mentor I ever had in my life. Oh my gosh. I could cry just thinking about him. But he said, I'm not a particularly coachable person. Adam, you are highly coachable. And I believe and I'm not saying that to say rah rah me, but I'm saying we can all I I if if I unfortunately, that man is no longer with us. But I would have questioned him on that notion and say, oh, come on, man.

Adam Dorsey [00:23:18]:
Come on. You're coachable. And but, yeah, oftentimes, it's that whole Carol Dweck mindset thing of that fixed mindset versus the growth mindset, which is a huge contribution to the field. And if we're willing to enter the growth mindset and say, you know what? I'm willing to be humble. We all have to go through these four stages of learning, and it incurs humility. I mean, we start at unconscious incompetence. We don't know what we don't know. We make our way up to suddenly recognizing, oh, my gosh, I'm incompetent.

Adam Dorsey [00:23:44]:
We become consciously incompetent. Like, oh, suddenly, oh my gosh. Now I'm aware of all that I don't know. And then we do some reps, and we become consciously competent. We're able to do a thing, but my god, it requires all of our brain. Don't talk to me while I'm doing it. And then when we do it enough times, we become unconsciously competent. We're able to it's it's part of us.

Adam Dorsey [00:24:04]:
We can do it while eating a cheeseburger and, you know, describing the numbers of pie. We know we know it that well.

Nia Thomas [00:24:11]:
Tell us about your seven step road map to feeling our feelings.

Adam Dorsey [00:24:15]:
Sure. So it starts with a a horrible place that many men are in, and it's a it's a fancy word. Fear not. You're gonna know what it is, and you're gonna love saying it at parties. But the word is alexithymia, the inability to articulate one's feelings. A, the absence of Lexi word, thymia, feeling. The inability to put words to feelings. And oftentimes, if you think about the scariest movies or perhaps even Harry Potter, down the street from you, it he who shall not be named.

Adam Dorsey [00:24:45]:
And Harry recognized that if you don't name Voldemort, Voldemort has all the power you need to name him. And Alexithymia is essentially very much connected to that idea, not naming the feelings. Guys will use kind of general words like I'm frustrated, annoyed, I'm stressed. Those are usually cover up terms. They're not naming Voldemort. That is an alexithymic state. Instead, what I help people do is come up with the names for what they're feeling. Oh, I'm feeling scared.

Adam Dorsey [00:25:18]:
Oh my god. I can't admit that in public. Instead of being annoyed, I'm actually scared or I'm sad or I'm heartbroken. Oftentimes we'll use cover up. And so step one is that step two is the naming process. And it goes all the way up to naming the multiplicity of emotions so that you're able to, as I was mentioning that there are multiple emotions that we're generally feeling all the way up to making a decision of how we're going to healthfully deploy those emotions. Sometimes just naming them is enough. Sometimes you have to do something.

Nia Thomas [00:25:52]:
The third layer of my definition of self aware leadership is regulation of our behavior. So it's reflection, recognition, and regulation. And it sounds like it's very similar to your pathway seven steps. Perfectly. Now I understand it. I can potentially make a choice about how I want to respond, react, do next.

Adam Dorsey [00:26:13]:
Reflection, recognition, and regulation?

Nia Thomas [00:26:16]:
Yes.

Adam Dorsey [00:26:16]:
Perfect. Yes. Exactly. That's it. That's it. That's that. That's basically, you know, the the cousin of FIP, feel, identifying process.

Nia Thomas [00:26:26]:
Yes. It really is. I was really interested in your podcast episode with doctor Alison Fragale. I think I've pronounced the name.

Adam Dorsey [00:26:34]:
Oh, yes.

Nia Thomas [00:26:35]:
So for listeners and watchers, it's number 242. And you were talking about the psychology of status. Now I'm very interested in how we, show up, self awareness and reputation, which I think there are intrinsic links. What are your thoughts on self awareness and reputation? Because I guess we've talked about some of these leaders in different organizations. But my view is that unless we are self aware, we cannot make those choices about the reputation that as leaders we portray and how we are received and perceived.

Adam Dorsey [00:27:09]:
Could not agree more. First of all, doctor Allison Fregale is one of the most brilliant and simultaneously hilarious people I've ever spoken to. I I I love learning and laughing. That's like, if if there's two things there that I would like to do just for the rest of my life, it'd be learning and laughter. And Allison For Gale is a spectacular creator of that. And she's also just made a massive contribution to her space of talking about women and status. Reputation is a really difficult thing because we don't have total control of it. But unless we are aware, we will say things that might be tone deaf.

Adam Dorsey [00:27:57]:
We will say things that will impair our reputations, And we can actually say things that could be on the permanent record that even come to define us, and we wish we could take it back. So one of the things I recommend people do is have, quite frankly, a basically, a board of trustees in your life. People who are really, really smart, who you can run something by. Before I send out this very important email, how does it read? And, before I have this conversation with this individual, how does this sound? And having the humility to run it by someone really smart who will tear it apart. And I've got my board of trustees, and each one, my gosh, they they help me out so much. And I'm on their boards. They know they can hit me up. You know, how does this sound? How does this look? Because, again, we can't really control the result.

Adam Dorsey [00:28:53]:
Decision making is Annie Duke reminds us is the key. We can make good decisions and have a bad result, but and we're gonna make bad decisions, have a great result. But over time, it's the consistency of making the good decision that will lend itself to the cards being stacked in our favor. So in that and that includes reputation for sure. So, yes. Thank you, Allison, for your contributions to our field. It's you've she's made a huge splash.

Nia Thomas [00:29:27]:
It's very true that you can't change others. You can only change yourself, and you can only start to do that if you have awareness and you recognize and you are able to regulate and make choices.

Adam Dorsey [00:29:37]:
A %. It's, really looking at the person in the mirror through different ways. I remember people told me I was a good public speaker in my twenties, and I believed that until I saw a video of myself giving a public talk. And the image I had of myself giving the talk versus what I saw on the video was so excruciatingly different. There was such a huge gap. I I was doing a good enough job, obviously, because people somehow thought it was good, but I didn't think of it. What I saw really freaked me out, and I would recommend that everybody record themselves.

Nia Thomas [00:30:14]:
Yes.

Adam Dorsey [00:30:14]:
It's a really, really painful thing to do. Record yourself, listen to yourself, even, you know, family gatherings. Notice, like, what you're doing. What facial expression are you giving off to the world? It may be vastly different from how you perceive yourself. I I see myself as a 17 year old male. I I I see video of myself. It turns out, that has not been the case for nearly four decades. My my hair and my skin do not in any way, shape, or form look like a 17 year old male.

Adam Dorsey [00:30:45]:
But that's that's my self image. I'm still cool like that. I'm not. Turns out. So the self awareness and realizing, okay. This is this this is my brand now, and this is who I am, and this is how I might come across to someone at who's a fellow student, with either of my children. Like, oh, I don't come across as one of them. I come across as their dad, and I have to remember that.

Nia Thomas [00:31:12]:
Yes. Indeed. And I would absolutely agree with you, and it's something that people who have worked with me will have heard me say. One of the best ways to develop your reputation and your persona and to make different choices is to record yourself. Whether you listen to yourself, whether you watch a video, It might well be painful, but these days, we've got phones. Nobody else has to see it. But I think that's one of the ways that's really important way that we can get to see what other people see and help us to reduce that blind spot just a little bit. In your conversation with Alison Fragale, you talked about self deprecating language, and I think this is really interesting.

Nia Thomas [00:31:53]:
Actually, I've become quite infuriated by people who use that self deprecating language. What is this about? How can we how can we use this if we're thinking about self awareness, we're talking about our leadership reputation, and recognizing this?

Adam Dorsey [00:32:08]:
Right. Well, we'll put ourselves down a notch before someone else does. I mean, I'm guessing this is my image of going to a pub, perhaps particularly in South Ireland and, you know, laughing it up. And at some point, somebody just handing it to you. Like, hey. I'm gonna knock you off a ledge. You know? You may have this fancy whatever it is, but you're you know? And we do it before the others can do it to us. I imagine that we also get into some inner critic stuff and we want us it's like, oh my gosh, I can't seem I can't seem too cool or too great.

Adam Dorsey [00:32:41]:
And so what we do is we knock ourselves down And it's very easy to engage in self deprecating language. We have all been bullied by someone or at least ourselves in our lives. Most of us both. And we tend to engage in self deprecating language because of this internal critic and wanting to make sure that they don't do it first. And maybe they don't wanna seem too big for our britches.

Nia Thomas [00:33:07]:
So there's a connection with imposter syndrome there?

Adam Dorsey [00:33:09]:
Imposter syndrome. There's this gorgeous quote, and I can only paraphrase it poorly from Marianne Williamson who describes that we're not so afraid of that our biggest fear lies in representing how good we are, how great we are. And, it's often attributed to Nelson Mandela, but I believe it originated from Marianne Williamson. But you can look it up. It's one of her great quotes. I mean, fabulous. But we are we're terrified to stand up in a kind of like what Amy Cuddy describes as a power pose. We're terrified to seem as big as we actually are.

Adam Dorsey [00:33:44]:
We try to make ourselves smaller so that, we don't stand out. Certain societies have it more obvious than others. In in Japan where I live, you know, the expression was the nail that stands up is that sticks out is hammered down. And boy, is that true? And it's true in other countries to varying degrees. So we will engage in self deprecating humor lest we are hammered down.

Nia Thomas [00:34:11]:
And we have a connection that, I lived in Japan in a for a year in university, and I speak I speak Japanese not as well as I used to. But, it's good to know we have that connection as well. Lovely to be able to speak Japanese. Mhmm. Who would have thought it? You also did a TED talk about adult friendships. And I'm I was very lucky to be in the Wohasu event in London last year where I heard the surgeon general, doctor Vivek Murthy, talking about, loneliness and and adult friendships. If we think about workplaces, one of the most, effective ways to increase self awareness and to reduce your blind spot is by developing trusted relationships with people who give you that kind of feedback. What are your thoughts on how we develop trusted relationships in the world of work? Because we know that loneliness is a challenge.

Nia Thomas [00:35:11]:
We know that we are not as good as we were when we were six and seven at developing friendships. How do we do that in the world of work?

Adam Dorsey [00:35:19]:
Yeah. And the only way that I know of is it takes patience. It takes time. It takes bids, and it also takes verification. Well, I notice not what they say, but what they do. Do they say that they're people who really value friendships, but they talk behind your back? The a bit of a a difficult, chasm to fill. Yeah. Notice, do they say that they'll show up if they constantly cancel or show up super late? Notice if they listen to you and show adequate care for you, and that it's a good upload and download process between you and the other person, or is it all about them? So it takes time.

Adam Dorsey [00:36:01]:
I would say start with your head and notice, you know, be willing. Be a little bit more Sherlock Holmes in your willingness to assess others in terms of are we a fit? Are you someone I can trust? Because oftentimes, you know, the only people who can really, really betray us are the people who we give our hearts to. And kind of, you know, almost think there's a Sting song that relates to this idea of, you know, making sure that there's somebody who can have our heart. And at work, it's a lot harder because there's a lot more at stake. It is a complication. There is work, and it's a little bit less democratic than in the outside world where you can just opt out of friendship or you can choose a friendship. Far more democratic in the outside world and at work, is it a friendship or is it an allyship? Are we good workmates? Is there a multiplicity in our roles? And, it's it can become very confusing, but seeing that that's where many adults find their people and that proximity is the number one driver of friendships and relationships themselves. Work has become such a place even though it could be fraught with some landmines along the way.

Adam Dorsey [00:37:13]:
Perhaps more so than outside work. Doesn't mean I mean, many people are so fortunate and have great friends at work and that's wonderful. And I would encourage, those types of friendships to be made, but also use your head as you do so. Get to know who they are. Notice how they behave.

Nia Thomas [00:37:32]:
I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today, Adam Dorsey. Thank you.

Adam Dorsey [00:37:38]:
Oh my goodness, Nia. I have loved being with you. And if you ever want me back, I'm in. Love what you're doing.

Nia Thomas [00:37:45]:
Right.

Adam Dorsey [00:37:46]:
And congratulations to you for all of your incredible contributions to this most important field. If you look at the pie chart of life, so much of our time is spent at work up to ninety thousand hours of our lifetimes. That's a lot of heartbeats. And the more conscious the leadership, my gosh, the most, more self aware, the better that component of a pie chart will be.

Nia Thomas [00:38:09]:
Definitely. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.

Adam Dorsey [00:38:12]:
Likewise, right back at you.

Nia Thomas [00:38:14]:
Thank you for joining me on today's episode where we aim to develop self aware leaders around the globe to generate kinder, more respectful and creative working relationships through reflection, recognition and regulation. Head over to my website at knowingselfknowingothers.co.uk to sign up to my newsletter to keep up to date with my blog, pod Looking forward to having you on my learning journey.