Nia Thomas [00:00:04]:
Hello and welcome to the knowing self knowing others podcast where we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. I'm your host Nia Thomas join me as we talk to today's guest. Welcome to today's episode. Our guest is the incredible Michelle Hartley, who's also known as the queen of the geeks and a true finder of awesome. With an HR superpower that allows her to spot a disciplinary situation from 20 paces away, Michelle brings a really unique blend of expertise and humor to the table. Michelle's passion for HR is infectious. She loves the field, the people, and the challenges that come with it. Through her business, People Sorted, Michelle offers a range of solutions designed to make a real impact.

Nia Thomas [00:00:48]:
So whether you need engaging in a fun training that breaks away from the mundane, a boost to your HR mojo, or an independent perspective on complex HR issues, Michelle has got you covered. So get ready for an insightful conversation with someone who truly makes a difference in the world of HR. Welcome, Michelle. It's lovely to have you here.

Michelle Hartley [00:01:08]:
Thank you so much. I don't know how to follow that intro. That was amazing. All true. Absolutely true.

Nia Thomas [00:01:15]:
So, Michelle, start by telling us what is HR? Because I guess we all think we know, but HR changes just like everything else. So it might seem like quite a basic question, but we've all got a different idea. So what is HR?

Michelle Hartley [00:01:30]:
Yeah. And there's been a big evolution around HR, hasn't there, over time? But I've noticed now it's coming much more towards, the naming convention of people and culture. Now isn't it? But essentially it is everything to do with people in an organization, from hiring to retiring and everything in between. So we talk about things like training, development, culture, values, vision, mission, talent management, succession, all of that great stuff, all features under the umbrella of HR. And I'll also say this behind behind my hand, but also maybe things like payroll might fit under HR as well. Okay. But no HR person likes the payroll.

Nia Thomas [00:02:10]:
So where does organizational development fit within HR? Because it's something that I've been quite interested in over the years. It's sort of the more training you are. But I've I've often spoken to people about OD, and not everybody knows what OD is. So where does that fit in HR?

Michelle Hartley [00:02:25]:
Yeah. And if you're an HR practitioner, getting OD into your CV means you can charge at least 10% more on your salary requirements as well. Okay. Thank you. Tip. Tip for life. Yeah. OD.

Michelle Hartley [00:02:36]:
So org development and design is, as you as you said, the the behavior side of things. So, I always liken it to the org design side is about the structure in terms of literally, like, the hierarchy people in places, and then org development is that behavioral change, cultural change, and learning and development side. So it kind of fits nicely with HR. I mean, in my roles particularly, I've done quite a lot of generalist roles. And so in that in that kind of space, I've touched on a lot of different things, OD and D being kind of one of those strands of things I've touched. But, yeah, it's a great a great facet

Nia Thomas [00:03:09]:
of HR, I would say. I'm really interested in those working relationships and behaviors that that you mentioned that ODE tries to support to have good relationships and behaviors. In your experiences when things go badly wrong between colleagues, what are the common things that are underpinning those those challenging situation?

Michelle Hartley [00:03:29]:
In terms of the experience of the employees, do you mean? Because what I see a lot is that lack of communication, I think I would

Nia Thomas [00:03:38]:
say. Whether you're seeing that between individuals or maybe what are organizations calling you in to come a shop with?

Michelle Hartley [00:03:46]:
Yeah. So I think a lot of the time, and especially now I'm kind of living my own biz life, I get involved in a lot of kind of escalated issues. And so it's always really interesting to get involved at kind of a much higher and more serious level. But, again, I still think that all of it comes down to miscommunication or misinterpretation of those behaviors, those values, and how we behave at work. So, you know, even all the way from issues with CEOs and chair people to issues between someone on reception and someone in the kitchen, the same principle boils down to that missed missed opportunity to communicate properly and fully in the organization. So I would say that's kind of the the theme coming out of that for me.

Nia Thomas [00:04:30]:
Well, that leads me on to my, I guess, my main question is we are interested in self awareness and self aware leadership on this podcast. Where do you see that connection between that failure of communication and that relationship breakdown and self awareness?

Michelle Hartley [00:04:46]:
Yeah. I think it and it's interesting. I was thinking a lot of the stuff that I deliver in terms of management development for clients, I always start with self awareness because actually that's that's the powerful bit, isn't it? Like, that's the powerful bit of being a good leader is knowing where your skills lie, knowing where your strengths lie, knowing where you've got gaps, knowing where the strength of your team is. So I think self awareness is the very start. And whenever I create management development programs, that's how I operate is I will pull together some kind of self awareness module near the beginning so that then everything kind of spins out of that. So, I've got a client at the moment, for example, where we've done an insights day together, so insights discovery. And then now I'm pulling threads through to all of the other modules that include then insights kind of back references. Because once you know yourself, you can deliver in the right way and you understand suddenly how to communicate that works for you as a leader, but also for your teams in terms

Nia Thomas [00:05:40]:
of the recipients as well. How do you manage if you've got senior leaders or people within an organization that you're going in to work with who really aren't self aware, who do not get it? And if you're saying that you start with self awareness, but actually you're not even there yet, how how do you get to that point? What's the bit before self awareness?

Michelle Hartley [00:06:01]:
Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? And I think, throughout my career, both in house and in self employed life, is that's always the challenge is you can work with the proportion of people that you've been kind of allocated to work with, or you can work with your senior leader group that you're looking after if you're a business partner. And that is always the challenge is trying to manage then that organizational population of people that haven't had the same training and development as you perhaps have at this middle management space. And certainly in organizations when I was in house, that's what would happen is we kinda work with we'll call them middle management, although I hate that term. We'd work with that middle management layer. The SLT would feel like, well, actually, I I don't need management training. Thanks very much. And then you'd have this layer pushing up then to the SLT because they've had all this training and this awareness and this development.

Michelle Hartley [00:06:47]:
So for me, a lot of the time, it's about that kind of socializing, that organizational politics awareness, that understanding how you can get senior leadership sponsorship into those kinds of things. But it is, it is the everlasting challenge, I think, in my experience.

Nia Thomas [00:07:02]:
Yeah. Most definitely. I've spoken to a few people on the podcast and, when we talk about relationships and we talk about self awareness, we often go into the conversation about harassment and bullying. Mhmm. And I was joined by Ritik Kanir at talking about civility and respect, and I I find that really interesting in organizations. Our conversation was particularly about the NHS, but equally relevant across other organizations. What are your thoughts on the stability and respect? Because as you've said, whether it's the chair and the chief exec or the receptionist and an administrator in the kitchen, Often, this is where something starts, and it is low level incivility. Well, what's your experience of civility and respect?

Michelle Hartley [00:07:42]:
Yeah. It's a really good one, Natt. I really like it. It's, it's an interesting one because we always used to have, in my in house days, we always used to have a principle about dignity at work and treating people with respect. And so there was always that kind of core for me about having that as your almost, like, foundational level in terms of how we all operate. But it's interesting because it doesn't it doesn't often land well with people, does it? Or people don't seem to kind of connect with what it really means. And often, in terms of my experience, what I've seen is it's almost like it has to happen to a senior leader in order for them to then go ahead and make the changes that need to happen in the organization. Okay.

Michelle Hartley [00:08:23]:
And so that's been my experience in the in house days. What's been really interesting in self employed life, as you know, I run a community of HR people called the HR Geek Squad. And what's been really interesting is I created the environment that I would have wanted to have had in my HR life. And so what what we've created is this, like, beautiful thing where everybody can be themselves. It's a safe space. We can all have conversations. We all look after each other. We all cheerlead each other.

Michelle Hartley [00:08:50]:
We're all there. You know, somebody says, o m g. I need to do this thing. Can someone help? You get at least 15 people piling in saying, oh, I've got that. I can do that. And then that kind of piece, I think, is huge. And having run an event, not last week, the week before, with this population of people, it was just amazing to see that in real life. And I think, as you've said, that stems from that initial core thing of respect.

Michelle Hartley [00:09:12]:
You know, we all respect and value each other and what we bring, whether that's something that's very different in terms how we do it, but we all value and respect each other's offerings. So I think that's kind of been really big for me over the last couple of years.

Nia Thomas [00:09:24]:
You said at the very beginning, Dave, that unless a senior person has experienced it, sometimes they really don't don't believe it or don't understand it. Tell me more about that and and pick that a little bit for me.

Michelle Hartley [00:09:38]:
So some of the senior leaders I've worked with would operate, and maybe it's because I've worked in really male dominated environment for a long period of time. So my background, a lot of it is engineering, manufacturing, you know, kind of, dirty end manufacturing stuff. So very male dominated, old school, if you like, environments. Maybe that's where that's come from. But a lot of the leaders in the senior position I've worked with have been very, I'm gonna say emotionally unintelligent, which feels a bit mean actually, but that's the only that's the only phrase that seems to fit. But they would kind of almost operate in a robotic way of I say this, you do that, or company says this, off you go, or, you know, input in, process out, and vice versa. And so it all felt very transactional rather than human. And so I think it was only when certain things might happen to them in life.

Michelle Hartley [00:10:30]:
For example, you know, one of the senior leaders I worked with parents died, and, of course, I sent a handwritten card and some flowers and, you know, did a thoughtful text message or whatever. And it was only then that they suddenly went, oh, oh, well, I'd like to do that for a member of my team. Yeah. But it's only because they'd experienced it that they suddenly realized that this made a big difference. So I think there's that piece of almost role modeling that at every opportunity in order to kinda get people to experience it. So they want to give it, which sounds really strange, doesn't it, when you think about it in those terms? But that's certainly what I would have observed in my time in kind of male dominated engineering and manufacturing environment.

Nia Thomas [00:11:05]:
I'm gonna ask you another question about, a male kind of relationship, and and our conversation certainly didn't start out as being gender related. However, this is where we're going.

Michelle Hartley [00:11:16]:
I have had experience I was a

Nia Thomas [00:11:19]:
I was the project initiator, so it was about, refurbishing a building. And we had some building surveyors, mail, and we had the contractors, the builders on-site, mail. And I attended couple of those meetings as the project lead for for this refurbishment, and the behavior between the two groups of men was absolutely shocking. The way that they communicated between each other left me absolutely gobslacked. And, I have never heard it before, and I've never heard it since. Is that normal in more male dominated industries that they do have that? Oh, gosh. You're nodding a lot.

Michelle Hartley [00:12:05]:
I'm, like, worrying that most people communicate. Yeah. It's certainly been my experience. I'm very I wanna be very clear because obviously there are some organizations that are very moderominated. They're wonderful. But certainly in my experience, it has been massively challenging. And I think what's really interesting is I have always been fine with that. Like, I'm I'm the daughter of a builder.

Michelle Hartley [00:12:28]:
Like, I'm used to, you know, that kind of behavior, that kind of salt of the earth approach, all the language, like, nobody can teach me any new swear words. But I think it only changed for me when I had a period of burnout and I needed more. So I needed more kind of I guess, like, human touch, like, more human touch type support, more checking in, more are you okay kind of approaches. And, of course, in that environment, that that just didn't happen. And so it was only after that period that I then thought, oh, maybe this isn't for me anymore. You know, maybe I need, you know, something a bit nicer, kinder, more thoughtful, more human centered than perhaps I had appreciated. Whereas, I think pre burnout, my focus was I want to be the pioneer. I want to be the woman that cracks all of these men in this environment, in this space.

Michelle Hartley [00:13:25]:
You know, even now, one of the things I do is, a product called Banta Bingo, which is getting managers to connect differently with employment law, EDI aspects, and that kind of stuff through the kind of banter that they say use, articulate, and share. So it's, it's genuinely a really fascinating thing. But, yeah, for sure, in my experience, it happens, still happens, and has happened for a long time. And I only really noticed it after that period of burnout when I suddenly needed a bit more, I think.

Nia Thomas [00:13:57]:
Wow. That certainly does make some organizations inaccessible for some people in that case.

Michelle Hartley [00:14:01]:
Yes. Yes. Most definitely. Yes.

Nia Thomas [00:14:04]:
You mentioned burnouts, and I wanted to ask you about burnout. I've seen you write about burnout. What is your experience and any words of wisdom that you could share with anybody who's who's worried that actually they might be heading that direction, or they have got to the point where they have burnt out and they feel that that unwellness that comes with burnout. How do they get back on track?

Michelle Hartley [00:14:26]:
Yeah. There's, there's some really interesting stuff actually. A really good friend of mine, Kelly Swindler, talks about burnout and is now running a burnout academy for coaches and for HR practitioners, which is genuinely fascinating and a great service. I think in my experience, I was always of the mindset that I would never burn out. Like, it's not a thing. So when it happened, I genuinely was so shocked. That was part almost of the recovery was getting over the shock of, oh my goodness. Like, I have genuinely broken my brain, and I need to recover.

Michelle Hartley [00:15:02]:
Like, I've I've never felt like that. But then when I reflect back now, I think that actually, like, that burnout, that kind of striving to the point of breaking, coming back, striving, breaking, coming back was was kind of my my modus operandi for life. And so I think it was only when I kinda went I strove too far and then kind of couldn't come back. And so it was a period of of sustained chronic stress that then tipped me finally into that burnout space. And I think for me, it's and this is why I talk about it so much. But for me, it was it was never talked about. It wasn't ever a thing. It was just everybody is in the stressful environment.

Michelle Hartley [00:15:40]:
We're all stressed. Like and, actually, I remember working in one manufacturing space, and I would have a succession of mostly female, actually, but mostly female leaders coming into my office and just sitting there and crying to the point where they would be, like, shaking in a real proper genuine upset. And I'd say to them what talked to me, what's happening. They'd be, oh, it's just stress. It's just stress. And I don't think I've ever when I look think back to it now, I'm like, wow. Just stress. That's a lot.

Michelle Hartley [00:16:06]:
You know? They're making you have that reaction. That's that's a lot. So for me, there were kind of 3 distinct periods, if you like, of of burnout that made me sit up and listen. So the first, I would say, was probably that big, awful, impact for moment where I I generally just broke my bone. There was a lot of stress going on. It was high profile projects. There was a lot of it. All the deadlines were coinciding to land in the same month.

Michelle Hartley [00:16:30]:
My previous boss had passed away, and I was still grieving. And so there was so much going on, and it was just my brain was at maximum occupancy. And I woke up one day, and I was redoing my makeup for the 4th time in the mirror because I cried it off the previous 3. And I just thought and I remember sitting, looking at myself in the mirror, and I was just like, this this has gotta stop. You just need to stop. So I remember texting my boss and saying, I'm just feeling really burned out with it, or I'm gonna take the day off. And, actually, that day wasn't enough. And that is what kind of made me start to worry as I was like, oh, this isn't gonna be fixed in a day of, like, sofa surfing and watching crap on telly.

Michelle Hartley [00:17:06]:
This is this is serious. And from that point onwards, I got signed off immediately because I was like, do you know what? I can't even face the act of calling in every day, that kind of trying to talk to someone every day. I just couldn't do it. So I got signed off straight away. I got signed off for 4 weeks. My GP was wonderful. I remember talking to him about the whole thing, and I just I've lost it, like, really upset, really crying. And he said, you just need permission for time off, and here it is.

Michelle Hartley [00:17:33]:
And it just felt like someone had just cut the strings. I was like, oh, okay. And that that made me realize that I just needed that time. So I took the time. I got better. I decided I had to be the pioneer of returning to work and do everything by the book and role model all this great stuff. So I did go back to work. But, of course, I went back with a new view on my energy levels and what I was and wasn't going to tolerate, which, of course, the organization wasn't expecting.

Michelle Hartley [00:18:02]:
And so it made it really difficult. So I I kind of had my time off between September December 2019, came back after Christmas break, January 2020, and lasted about 3 weeks before I was like, you know what? This isn't the place for me anymore. I need to go. So I spoke nicely to my CEO and just said, this is my last year. Whatever happens is gonna be my last year in the organization. This you know, it's not a threat. I'm telling you that if I'm still here by September 2020, I'm gonna just hand him my notice and go. And again, that was then another couple of weeks, and the senior leadership team was in that same space in terms of their behavior and approaches to things.

Michelle Hartley [00:18:37]:
And I just thought I don't wanna do this anymore, so I resigned with nothing to go to. And that was 2020 and we all know what happened in 2020. So COVID then hit. I couldn't leave the organisation because my inner HR professional was like you can't leave them in this state. So I stayed on longer. I saw them through the kind of worst bits of COVID, which was then burnout number 2 because I don't think I've ever been so stressed at work in all my life. Like, I'm a natural germophobe anyway. But then to have all of this, like, perceived responsibility of I need to educate the organization.

Michelle Hartley [00:19:15]:
I need to manage people on furlough. I need to manage key workers and encourage them to leave the house in this really dangerous space and, you know, encourage them to go out and risk their lives for, machinery repair. Like, it was just the weirdest time. So that was burnout number 2. So I finished that role. Wanted to have Summer off, ended up having Summer just brain fogged wrecked. At the same time, my stepdad became very poorly and passed away from a terminal illness that took, like, 3 months, and he was gone. And then caring for my mom in that time was kind of burnout number 3.

Michelle Hartley [00:19:52]:
So it was all very kind of quick succession periods of burnout because I hadn't put in those coping strategies because I didn't really know them, to be honest. I just recovered and then didn't know what to do. So to come back with your original question about, tips and things for people to watch out for, I think I didn't even know what to look for, you know, when I was burning out. Because I think for months before I did actually kind of throw in the towel and and take time off, you know, I was sat in senior leadership team meetings, and I was trying to, like, stop my heart racing. So my heart began so fast, and I remember just holding my breath in a senior team meeting and just trying to control my heart rate. And I was kinda doing like a and I got told off because they were saying, stop sighing, Michelle. What's wrong with you? And I wasn't sighing. I was trying to control my heart rate.

Michelle Hartley [00:20:43]:
And so that was one of the indicators of, like, this principle of hang on a minute. Something's not right. Your body's giving you a message here. You know, I'd lived with IBS for a really long time. I'd lived with rosacea for a really long time, and all of those things are indicators of high levels of cortisol and stress in your body. So I think what I would say is, like, tune into the things that your body might be telling you. You know, if you're eating too much, if you're drinking too much, if you're, you know, working to live, if you are experiencing, like, hot sweats, adrenaline dumps, heart rushes, all of those things. That is normally an indicator that something isn't right.

Michelle Hartley [00:21:22]:
And I've been having therapy for a long time, so therapy is always cool, and things like that. Taking time off before you actually break your brain is really sensible, and following, like, burnout creators, so Kelly Sinclair, Michelle, Humania, lots of people like that will have those those kinds of contents going out. And I think had I had that at that time, I might have acted a bit more quickly and sooner and prevented that kind of big burnout, I think. So I think it's just tuning into your body, listening to what you need, and then educating yourself when it feels safe to, around burnout and what it can do for you and that kind of stuff, I think.

Nia Thomas [00:22:00]:
How do we start to maybe infiltrate the organization, the the kind that you described right at the very, very beginning, who aren't really interested in emotions and and maybe are disrespectful and and civil to each other. There are still human beings in those situations. How do we give them an in or give them an out so that they can start to have these conversations and they can raise their own awareness about this because this is dangerous, isn't it? Because if it is in your heartbeat to this extent, that is heading towards cardiac arrest. That that's where we're going. This is really dangerous stuff.

Michelle Hartley [00:22:37]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And there were times when I genuinely thought I think I'm having a heart attack. You know, it would be it would be that bad. So, yes, I totally get that. I think it's almost like making, like, pockets of safety, which sounds like a really weird thing to say. But, you know, making pockets of safety, creating, you know, groups, networks, safe people that you can have those conversations with. And I know that people say mental health first aid is it for that, not in my experience.

Michelle Hartley [00:23:02]:
I I think mental health first aid is a brilliant, by the way, but I think it almost needs more than that. And I think it's about kind of almost creating, like, a network of of people or a safe space or even a place to just go and have those conversations if you're feeling overwhelmed. And I think that's the only way to start it. I mean, the other thing that gives me, kind of heart and comfort is those people that are in leadership positions right now aren't gonna be there in 5, 10 years' time, so we'll have retired. And there will be other leaders coming up. And certainly in my in house experience, that was the reason for focusing on perhaps those middle levels of leadership, those up and coming levels of leadership so that by the time those successors fill those positions, you've kind of got that long term goal of actually we are human beings here, and we need to take time and look after people. So I do think there's almost like a bit of a long game and then a bit of the shorter game. So the long game is knowing that the dinosaurs won't be in post for more than 10 years.

Michelle Hartley [00:24:00]:
The short game being creating those, like, pockets of safety, you know, safe spaces, safe people, safe conversations that can happen. I hope you wonderful

Nia Thomas [00:24:10]:
way of describing it, pockets of safety. Yes. And listeners, watchers, if you're in this situation and you can see that you've got colleagues around you who need pockets of say safety, then educate yourself, link in with HR people like Michelle to to help you create these pockets of safety because we really need them.

Michelle Hartley [00:24:29]:
Yes. I totally, totally agree. I mean, even in, in house days, you know, I would say I would grab people and say, right. Come on. Let's go for a walk. And we'd walk to the nearest coffee shop and just get a coffee. And that wasn't because I thought, oh, they're gonna melt down, but it was just a, do you know what? Somebody else might need to get out because I do. You know? And it was that kind of, I'm just gonna go and people can come or not.

Michelle Hartley [00:24:49]:
And it's that that kind of space, I think, that is just really helpful. I know with, the Geek Squad as an example, we have monthly speakers, and every speaker every month will come and talk about their passion project, whatever that is, you know, whatever their organization is, whatever they do. This month was digital detox. But we've had lots of different, you know, experienced speakers, and I wonder if something like that would really land well in organization. And certainly, if I was back in in house days, that would be the sort of thing I would think about is once a month, we're gonna have a core speaker come in and talk to us about all of these different topics. Some will resonate, some will land, some won't. But But actually, you've got the opportunity then to have this library of of wonderful things and talks that you can learn about and interpret. The challenge of that is the people that will access it probably won't be the people that you want to access it in terms of those that might need it for development purposes.

Michelle Hartley [00:25:38]:
But Yeah. That's the start of another safe pocket, isn't it? Like, oh, I've just watched this thing, and it reminded me of a conversation we'd had. You know, that that kind of stuff to get that sort of thing going, I think, can also be really helpful without kind of doing a point at people and saying, well, you need this because you're this. It's, it can also be a really helpful thing to just have, have somewhere a little library of great talks and awesome resources.

Nia Thomas [00:26:00]:
Raising awareness of awareness. You deliver activity led learning and I think that's a really great way of describing it. The last direction of my self aware leadership compass is experience and specifically it's experiential learning. And that's as much about developing opportunities to be yourself as the leader as it is about creating those opportunities for people in your team. So tell us more about activity led learning, and and why is it important to you?

Michelle Hartley [00:26:29]:
I it's interesting. So I started this kind of approach because as an HRD in house, I wasn't getting suppliers delivered what I wanted. And what I was finding is we were having to spend time with my in house team creating activity led staff because our managers were old school manufacturing style managers who just weren't gonna engage in a sit down session with a 176 slides to look at and a workbook to write in. So we ended up creating our own in house management development program, which was focused on, you know, activities, read a chapter of a book, join in this development activity, look at this role play, let's go and do some stuff together. And that made a massive impact, like a huge impact within the 1st year. And so that's where it kind of sparked for me, I think, is I I didn't see anybody else delivering the stuff that we were delivering in house. And all I had in the organization was they were like, you can have an hour, and you can have an hour, and then that's it. That's all you've got.

Michelle Hartley [00:27:27]:
With all these managers, you get an hour for each session. No one's committing to anything else. You're not having a full day out. And I was like, fine. Bet. Like, bring it. So that is what I did. So in my my hour session that I had, everything got split into 10 minute windows, and every 10 minutes, we changed up the activity or the discussion or the principle of what we were doing.

Michelle Hartley [00:27:46]:
And it just made such a massive difference because it forced us as a team to be much more commercial in terms of what needed to be, you know, in a session, what needed to be something that could be read or watched or listened to, and then we really made the best use of that time. And so I apply now the same principles to what I do for clients. I mean, luckily, some of my clients now give me a whole day. But my entire program, for example, my HR program that I do, is just an hour a week every week, and it's impactful and powerful and gives people the right nuggets. So I think that this is the way that training should be and should have always been. I just think we've ended up falling into this, like, lazy rut of having just day aways and reading through loads of slides and doing boring stuff. So you'll find me rock up to training with a massive bag of Lego, for example, and we'll build, you know, your boss from heaven and your boss from hell, and then we'll draw out those key behaviors, and we'll start building on them. You know, I did one with an HR team talking about your HR business partner from heaven and your HR business partner from hell, and then pulling out, you know, those key themes.

Michelle Hartley [00:28:49]:
And then we did some live skills development with them that was petrifying for me as trainer because I didn't know what they were gonna come out with. But that kind of stuff worked really well. And the principle of, you know, playing while you're learning means the learning goes deeper and you connect with it really differently rather than, oh, what was on slide a 174 of a 176? They'll never remember it. Same principle with the banta bingo stuff that I do. If you want managers to learn about employment law, you need to smack them in the face with it, not go, here's the 9 protected characteristics. Training doesn't land if it's talking at me. It doesn't do it for me. And so, you know, having training that is activity based with things like Lego, play, fidget toys, fun, is where it lands.

Michelle Hartley [00:29:34]:
And that's the feedback that I get from my clients is yours is the training that really sticks.

Nia Thomas [00:29:39]:
Yeah. Wow. I love that. Yes. Because so many people really do not enjoy or engage with classroom type learning. Yes. As you were talking, I was thinking that what we know about the way boys learn and girls learn, that it's very much more experiential. So why would that not feed into adulthood and as we learn in the workplace? So I really like that.

Nia Thomas [00:30:01]:
So I'm I'm gonna spend more time watching and listening to what you're doing, Charles, because I really wanna be able to learn more from learning in that way. Because you're right, we do get lazy, and we do do half days and whole days. And maybe they're not as effective as they could be if we did training in a different way. Yeah. Exactly. You often make me laugh with your social media posts and your video. Tell us about your self awareness journey that's really helped you realize that you were funny, that you are funny, and that that this is one of your superpowers and that you can really harness this to to help you work in this field.

Michelle Hartley [00:30:36]:
Yeah. It's, I wanna say I've always had a bit of a personality. So even when I was in in house days in my navy blue suit and corporate attire, I still had a bit of personality. So I kind of always had that little edge. But I think for me, it was the burnout that made me really consider where I was spending my energy. So that's where it really started for me. Because I was like, hang on a minute. Why am I spending so much energy holding this big fake corporate face up when it's not me? And so that's where it really started.

Michelle Hartley [00:31:07]:
It's like, hang on a minute. I'm gonna stop this. Like, no more hiding behind the suit. No more, like, corporate behaviors. Like, just be yourself because that still works. So there's something about, like, self worth realization kind of stuff. And then when I started my business, I was talking about this at the event actually a couple of weeks ago. But when I started my business, I didn't see anybody like me.

Michelle Hartley [00:31:27]:
And what I saw was and this this will sound meaner than I intended. What I saw was a lot of mediocre HR consultants. So natively suits, people that would talk about employment law and what it meant for the organization, that kind of stuff. And it just didn't set me a fire. And so there was no one out there that made me think that's what I wanna do. And so I didn't even want to run my own biz because I was like, this this isn't for me. I don't see anybody like me. I you can't be what you can't see.

Michelle Hartley [00:31:53]:
And so I was like, this isn't this isn't right. And so I kind of started out, I guess, maybe 5050. So I started out like half corporate Michelle, half Michelle Michelle, and was trying to find my footing. And I realized when I was delivering training, that people engage the training much more when I was just being me, like, when I relaxed and I was just being me. And I think that's where it then started. And then the more that I engaged with that, so me being me, and then got my brand done and had my colors done, how random, had my colors done by house of color, Had my brand done by Kaylee, and then had some photos done with Rosie Parsons. It all just suddenly came crashing in. And I think what happened was I hit LinkedIn like a bit of a tsunami.

Michelle Hartley [00:32:37]:
It's like brightly colored, really funny HR person. And then what was more even more brilliant is it attracted more HR people like me to me. And so at the event a couple of weeks back, I genuinely stood there at the side of the room looking around all these people who are brightly colored, hilarious, chatty, fun, and they were all HR people. And I was like, I would have killed for this when I was in house just realizing that I wasn't an alien that was an HR person. The personality exists. So it's been a great journey of of discovery. So I think, you know, whenever people say to me like, oh, how do you feel about burnout? Would you do it again? I would I wouldn't choose to do it again, quite frankly. But the good thing coming out of that is I realized that being me saved me time and energy and actually being me has meant I can build an entire business on being myself and that's really important.

Michelle Hartley [00:33:30]:
And so I talk to people a lot about being your authentic self, you know, connecting with the real you and having that kind of inner confidence, I guess, and self worth. So that's that's where it kind of comes from for me, I think. But yes, it's also hilarious to take the mic out of HR people on LinkedIn.

Nia Thomas [00:33:47]:
And it really feels like a a a lesson in real authenticity because I think we yes. We've skipped along, this track of authenticity, and it's become something a little bit more than or different to what it was originally meant. Authenticity is about what's that core of you inside and how you really operate to that core. And that feels like such a good exercise of actually, hang on a minute. This isn't me. But I now know what the real me is. Yes. Exactly that.

Nia Thomas [00:34:17]:
The last question I wanna ask you, Michelle, is what trends are you seeing in people management? Because I'm very conscious that I think I worked out in 2026, we're gonna have around 5 generations of people in in the world of work together, and people are gonna have different needs. They're gonna have different ideas, visions, values, beliefs. What are your thoughts about where we're gonna be in the next couple of years with HR?

Michelle Hartley [00:34:43]:
I'm definitely seeing, like, a more I don't wanna say compassion because it's not the right word, and compassion doesn't, like, set me a fire. But I think I'm seeing much more of a drive for, like, inclusive leadership, and within that comes that compassion piece. But I see it a lot now where I get managers and leaders coming to me, and they'll say, you know, I want to pull together management development program, but I want it to land for everybody. And, you know, there'll be someone in the team who's neurodivergent or somebody in the team who has ADHD or someone you know, there's a they kind of have an awareness of the mix of their team being really diverse, but they're not really sure yet about how to do it. And so I think that's something that I've seen coming through, which has been a really joyful thing for me to see is that suddenly, we're thinking in a much more realistic way about how to work with our teams in a much more inclusive way. And I think, COVID has done that for us because, obviously, we're all forced to be remote, weren't we? Now we're in this this strange hybrid space, but, actually, what it's done is it's forced, you know, leadership to think and act slightly differently because they actually have to kinda manage populations of people that are disparate from the main office. But also people now with different needs have found they work better in different environments. So I think there's that inclusive leadership space I'm seeing much more.

Michelle Hartley [00:36:02]:
And then from the HR side, I think it's just much more down the route of looking at what's hitting us technology wise. I see a lot of, fear factor type conversations around AI. I'm fascinated to see where that's gonna go, quite frankly. It's really interesting to I always call it like a bug in a glass to sit with the bug in a glass and kind of look at the experiment and how it's happening. Because I just find it all genuinely fascinating, and that will come through a lot more now, I think, in terms of, you know, things like having AI led chat to answer those initial questions for managers and leaders, having AI to help you with your onboarding, you know, that kind of stuff. I know that, you know, there's lots of AI things around interviews. For example, doing your initial interview as a video with an AI type bot arrangement, which is slightly scary. But I am genuinely fascinated to see what that would take us.

Michelle Hartley [00:37:00]:
So I think that's gonna be something that will feature for all of us coming up. And then also this piece about the kind of connected employee, I think. There's a lot more around organizational activism. So things like, black lives matter, trans day visibility, organizations really having to put themselves out there now and take a stand on these things because there are organizational activists now that will say, well, hang on a minute. Why why don't we have this? And I like that. I think it's really it's the the bottom up way of forcing organizations to change. So I think those are the the key bits that are popping out for me.

Nia Thomas [00:37:38]:
There's definitely a a theme of integration there, isn't there? Whether you're integrating people or integrating the the thoughts of society into the world of work. Interested in what you're saying about AI. I've got this this idea in my head that it's ultra digitalism and hyperhumanism. And as we go ultra digital, we're gonna want to be hyperhuman because we have to balance this out because we are touchy, feely, thinking, peculiar, different flavors, human beings. Yeah. And we're gonna need all of that because if we go more digital, ultra digital, it has to be balanced out somewhere. So that's where my thinking's going. Michelle, how can people get in touch with you, and how can they join your work and your your events and your groups?

Michelle Hartley [00:38:22]:
Yes. So you will mostly find me mucking about on LinkedIn. So on LinkedIn, you can find me under Michelle Hart Lee, FCIPD finder of awesome. So you can look up find your awesome, and I'm hanging out on there on LinkedIn, or you can just search for me, Michelle Hartley, on LinkedIn. I do also have a website. It is probably the most fun website you will ever see, which is peoplesorted.co.uk. It's a very cartoony website, but I feel like it's very reflective of my energy.

Nia Thomas [00:38:50]:
Yeah. Brilliant. We will make sure that there are links in the show notes so that people can indeed come and find you. And what is it on Friday if things go in the bin? Is it Friday we wanna be watching?

Michelle Hartley [00:39:03]:
Yeah. Bin Fridays. Yes. Every Friday, I put things in the bin that frustrate me. And what's very funny, Nia, is that, I never set out for that to be a big thing. I just set out for it to be something funny to do on a Friday because things really knocked me off on a Friday. But what is absolutely hilarious is now I'm known as the bin lady. Like, it doesn't matter that I've had 20 plus years in HR delivering great things.

Michelle Hartley [00:39:26]:
Now I'm just known as the bin lady. So, yes, come watch me put things in the bin on a Friday. Definitely.

Nia Thomas [00:39:31]:
I am there religiously. Michelle, it's been wonderful having a conversation with you at last. It feels like I've been watching you on LinkedIn and and really joining in with what you're doing for such a long time. So it's brilliant to be able to have a conversation with you. Michelle Hartley, thank you very much.

Michelle Hartley [00:39:47]:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Nia Thomas [00:39:50]:
Thank you for joining me on today's episode where we aim to develop self aware leaders around the globe to generate kinder, more respectful and creative working relationships through reflection, recognition and regulation. Head over to my website at knowingselfknowingothers.co.uk to sign up to my newsletter to keep up to date with my blog, podcast and book. Looking forward to having you on my learning journey.