Nia: Hello and welcome to the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast, where we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. I'm your host, Nia Thomas. Join me as we talk to today's guest. 

Today I'm joined by Nancy Parsons and she is a leadership development and talent management expert with over 35 years of experience. She's the president and co founder of CDR Assessment Group and she's president and founder of CDRU. In 1998, she co developed the CDR3 Dimensional Assessment Suite, which is a coaching tool measuring leadership traits, risk factors for derailment, and drivers and rewards, 

She's authored two research based books on the glass ceiling and women's empowerment. Wow, quite a CV. Nancy, it's lovely to have you here.

Nancy: Well, thank you, Nia. I'm delighted to be with you today. 

Nia: So [00:01:00] tell us about the CDR assessment group. What is your area of expertise? And really, what is it that you do? 

Nancy: Yeah, so we have, as you mentioned, our 3D suite that my business partner, co founding partner, Kim Leverage and I developed back in 1998. And so it measures three different areas, what we call character traits or deep personality traits, risks, For derailment or personality based risks that get in our way under stress.

And then thirdly, what are your passions and interests? What energizes you? So this is your intrinsic motivators. Together we call that the 3D suite. And we also have a 360 tool as well for coaching and development. But the 3D suite, what's different about that, it really helps somebody's self awareness.

And the reason we formed back in 1998, um, C. D. R. To begin with was that we knew that leader leadership as a whole was not effective. The numbers were not good on, you know, the [00:02:00] effectiveness. And part of it is because many of them are not self aware, and they're making a lot of decisions, or they have the risk behavior showing that undermine their effectiveness that are toxic and all these other things.

So, in our mind, our goal, believe it or not, it still is to revolutionize leadership the other thing that happens when organizations are not using good measures people are placed in the wrong jobs, so they're in jobs they're not well suited to and it's not because of their intellect.

We're not talking intellect. We're talking personality fit what they're really good at. Then there's a lot of ineffective behaviors and it's more stressful. If I'm in a job, if you put me in like an accounting role, it would be a disaster and I would be a stress mess, right? So you'd see more negative behaviors versus my positive strengths.

So that's what it's all about. It's for us, it was, we felt a calling to turn leadership on its head on the way it's done and use scientific measures to get it right. 

Nia: I'm very fortunate and I've, and I've taken the CDR assessment and I was. really [00:03:00] impressed by not only the assessment process, but the feedback.

Can you tell listeners and watchers , what to expect when they get that feedback once they've taken the assessment? 

Nancy: Right, right. So there's two ways to get feedback generally. One is live to live with an executive coach or a certified coach. But now we offer the digital avatar coaching that you took.

So we can now provide this feedback to anyone at any level, which we think is important. The earlier in the career, the better. But what you can expect when you take it first, you have to take the assessments and then you go in you get to pick your avatar coach. If you don't like that avatar, you can change it along the way.

But what you're going to get is a very personalized in depth debrief. They're not reading you the assessments. . They're interpreting the assessments and the results for you, helping you to understand them. But the thing that's different that people will say, oh, my goodness, it goes deeper than any other assessment.

You've ever experienced because even in our character assessment, it's modeled after the 5 factor model, but we have 7 primary [00:04:00] scales. And what we call 42 subscales, that that's the real meat of the assessment. In other words, it gives you the individual differentiators. Because, Nia, for example, you and I could, could, uh, score 60 on adjustment.

That's one of the, that's the first scale. But it might show up very differently for us. It might manifest differently. And that's what the subscales tell us. Right? So it's so helpful to get that in depth. Information about you, and it's all about you. No two are the same. So after you go through the character debrief, which is about a, um, what is it about a 40 minute debrief personalized with you and your avatar, then you move to the risk assessment.

Now, the risk assessment. This is something that people never talk about it, or they don't understand about themselves until they go through it. And , it's natural behaviors under stress, conflict, adversity, or somebody's pushing our button in the ways we cope that don't serve us or others very well.

They're ineffective. And so until [00:05:00] we, you know, clients even say until we go through this, we didn't even have a vocabulary for what we're doing in the moment. And remember, these are ingrained behaviors that we developed from the time we're infants on up. So it's not something that just happened here and there.

These are patterns of our behavior under certain situations, right? And like, for example, for women, in our research and my two research based books, what we learned was the majority of women in mid level leadership or management tend to be high worriers. That's one of the 11 risks. So what's, what's hurting them is, so under stress, conflict, like if there's conflict at a meeting, they shut down and go inside their head.

Instead of fighting back and standing, you know, because they want to be 100 percent right. And if they're not sure, they just kind of hunker down and that hurts them. Then they get bypassed naturally for leadership posts, because, you know, you've got to be able to stand strong even during tough times. So that's what we help women with is recognize, do you do [00:06:00] this?

And what can you do about it? So that's kind of the risk. But people love the risk because it's something so new and different, right? and it is the main thing that holds people back period in their careers. 

Nia: Absolutely. And then 

Nancy: thirdly, we end on the upswing, right? On your heart, what touches your heart?

What do you love? What do you enjoy? What gives you passion? What energizes you and excites you versus those things that you find annoying, tedious, or you just don't like. And the point is for that, the whole point, bottom line is you want to be in a job, but we, what we hope for that really taps into your strengths to a nuanced level that really hits your strengths.

And. Okay. Your drivers, your passions is if you have both of those going, you'll never work a day in your life. You will love what you're doing and it's a good fit and you'll be successful. And then your risks don't show very much because it's hard to have all these stress behaviors when you're happy.

It's kind of a so anyway, but that's the whole point of it is to help people kind of take a deep look inside. Who am I? What am I really good at? What [00:07:00] excites me? What gets in my way? What do I love? And the, , the purpose is keen self awareness. And lastly, the studies show that only 10 to 15 percent of people are self aware.

And I would even argue on that. They may be self aware, but they don't know the risks if they haven't been through this, you know, type of tool. So anyway, it's just, it really is, to prepare people and now we've seen the need early on with CDRU coach.

I've seen so many careers not reach the potential, you know, or they go or people going jobs are not happy with or career college degrees that really don't fit with their best at. I can't tell you how many college kids I've coached that were in the wrong major. So it's so important to get it right, you know, because there's no point.

Life is hard enough. There's enough challenges, right? Absolutely. So that for me, it's like, let's get it right and help people early on, not fall back because of their risks or something else. That makes sense. 

Nia: Yeah, definitely. You [00:08:00] mentioned that this coaching is available to anybody.

And I really love that because something that I'm interested in is leadership at all levels. Um, and I noticed that you, you have a free ebook via your website and you mentioned it in that as well, that it's, this is not just for executives. What prompted you to really include that in your book and, and how, how is that accessible?

Because organizations tend to put their developmental investment into their senior executives. So how do we encourage organizations to use this tool for everybody? 

Nancy: Absolutely. Well, what's happening is too, you know, when you look at the numbers, we can make the business case for these organizations.

Leadership effectiveness. The bar hasn't moved. Okay. 50 to 75 percent of leaders are ineffective. According to a myriad of studies. It was that way when we started CDR. It's that way today. So when you look at the opportunity there, if we can turn that around. But secondly, employee engagement is [00:09:00] terrible.

What do they say? 70 about Gallup says about 71 percent of employees are not engaged. Well, it's because employers need to care about their careers, need to help them get in the right paths and the right jobs. And the third thing I would say about that for companies, you need a talent inventory. Okay.

Companies have no idea what their true asset is, their people, because they don't measure it. They may measure skills, but that doesn't tell you about capabilities. We measure capabilities and what people can and should be doing that they'll excel at, right? So, but they have inventories of all their other assets, right?

They have warehouses, they have inventories. But their most important asset, there's no inventory. We can provide an inventory with CDRU Coach. But the main thing is and I learned this as we started embarking on this and doing all the research when we were developing CD or you coach, you're, you're on point.

Why do we wait till the last 25 percent or 3rd of somebody's career when they've made it that far? To start developing them. [00:10:00] Shouldn't we develop them in the first 25%? You know, 50%. So that's the whole point is all of your people need development and they need it personalized. The studies are showing that too.

So now we can deliver it in a confidential way. Your employees can take it at home. You don't have to be in the office and they can replay at any time. They can go back to it and we have 2 developmental action planning modules for them so they can keep building their plans to review with their managers.

So it's just a great tool and then. Simultaneously then the company can use that data to get their development decisions, right and even their promotional decisions, right and succession planning, since our tools are validated for selection screening. So, it's kind of like both an individual development, develop your employees and an enterprise wide solution to getting talent, right.

So, yeah, you're absolutely right. What we do, there's nothing out there like it. So we're really excited. 

Nia: Um, I, I was thinking exactly the same succession planning. If organizations at the very least [00:11:00] think about the amount of money they spend on recruitment, if they use these, this kind of tool with the people who are already in the organization, you've got succession planning. It's made, it's internal and it's already there.

Nancy: Yeah, and we've done projects where we find hidden talent in organizations. So you probably have so many people, even STEM talent. I don't know if you saw that part in it, but we identify STEM talent too. So you can have hidden STEM talent that you could then move into some other, you know, retooling or, you know, bootcamp training, but also for like leadership positions and so forth.

We can identify that inherent talent. You can then develop into the right roles and stop promoting people. Maybe only because they have the MBA or the PhD doesn't always mean they're good leaders. They may be good thought leaders and great individual contributors or researchers, but they can be horrible leaders as we know.

Right. So it's interesting. You know, I always say when I'm teaching a class, I always say I can fill up this room [00:12:00] with, uh, a hundred MBAs from the finest schools. And if I have a job for like vice president of business development, there might only be. 10 of those people that are good fit for that job, yet they all have that equal education.

They're all super smart. How do you figure that out? And it's not on a resume, but we can figure that out for you. 

Nia: tell us a little bit more then about how you can use your CDR3 for recruitment and for promotion. 

Nancy: Yeah, it's ideal. Um, and these types of measures were actually developed for selection.

So every job has been measured and the difference in our tool compared to like a DISC or Myers Briggs or many of these others. It's not only test to test reliable. In other words, it's not only correlated test to test. It's the second step of validity where we run the numbers based on performance in jobs. So that's why it can be used for selection screening. It's not just test to test, it's actually based on, uh, you know, studies, validity studies on [00:13:00] performance and jobs. So we relate it to actual performance, correlate it. And we have numerous studies, nearly every job has been studied.

So that's how we know what each job looks like, what IT analyst looks like, what a nurse looks like, what a VP of, uh, uh, Technology looks like et cetera. 

What we do, we encourage our clients to once you call the numbers down to the people you think you want to interview.

That's the time to administer the assessments. Now, they don't they don't go through CDRU coach and all we have consultants who then guide you know, the hiring managers through who fit, they developed the cutoff scores, the criteria of who fits, who doesn't after obviously evaluating the job description and, you know, interviews with key stakeholders.

So there's a process, 

so let's say you have 10 candidates, Nia, uh, for, let's say we're doing a, I don't know, HR VP. And you had 10 candidates. Typically, at least five won't even make it to the interview process once you run the assessments, because we will know the [00:14:00] ones that fit based on your job description and your key needs for the organization.

From there, you then interview those people and we actually provide interview questions too, based on how they score on the assessments. So while you got your assessment reports. For development, we also have reports to help organizations interview people to find out how these behaviors manifest for those individuals.

So, for example, if I'm interviewing somebody who's an ego to cynic, right? I want to find out how it's showing up. So we provide actual questions for those interview teams to find out how does that egotist typically show up and that kind of thing, because you don't want to go in blind, right?

Then the next thing is that some of our clients do once they onboard the person, then they either give them CDR you coach or life coaching. That's kind of the ideal. 

We can also do mass screening with just the character assessment.

Nancy: Um, we've done truck drivers, . We know what good truck drivers look like the safe good, you know, tractor trailer [00:15:00] drivers we have those measures because, uh, there's certain things that make them safe, uh, rule abiding, you know, consistent alert, all those things. And not their minds not wandering.

You know, we don't want truck drivers to race up the ramp, do we? I mean, we just don't need it. Yeah, you can't can't focus on the road. You don't want them where they can't focus on the road. So anyway, every job, you know, offshore oil workers, you name it has been studied and we can assess for those job sales.

Of course, sales is a big 1 that we have so much data on.

Nia: Such an impressive tool that has so much backing behind it and I know you and I have talked a little bit before and I'm lucky that I've done the assessment but really it is so impressive and every time we talk, I'm a little bit more impressed by the tool.

this podcast, we are interested in self awareness and self aware leadership, particularly. What are your thoughts on self awareness and [00:16:00] particularly its role in improving professional functioning? 

Nancy: Oh yeah, it's essential. It's like 101 because I don't know myself well enough to know, okay, here's my strengths I can really leverage.

And the other thing that happens sometimes is people get pushed to work in gaps, areas of non strengths. So they spend a lot of time and it's hard on them. Okay. Where they could be used. You could be using their gifts in other places where they're good. So the other thing it lends itself to, um, is even flexible job design or job descriptions so that you also wrap it around your people or your team a bit to make sure you're complimenting what they're good at.

So the key is if I know what I'm really good at and what I love and, and those things I'm not, I want to push myself into a career and have those discussions with my boss about those things while managing my risks, understanding what they are. The other thing we do with risks, and we do a lot of team and group development after people have been coached [00:17:00] because it's one thing to be self aware, but then it's kind of how do I play and interact with others?

Right? 

Nia: I 

Nancy: mean, I, I love coaching, but I, I have to confess, I love team or group development even more because the light bulbs, you know, like I'll, I'll divide people, for example, by, uh, their interpersonal sensitivity, low scores, high scores, , and I have a series of questions and they have to go through them and then share and talk and discuss and work together.

But then they have to realize they don't interact real well together because one has a different set of needs than the other and one thinks, you know, they wear their feelings on the sleeves and the others are like, they're so harsh. I can't stand them. You know, so instead they stop communicating because it's kind of hurtful.

Both ways are annoying. We help them build those bridges to understand how can they communicate, you know, while not losing themselves, but also how can they get to a better place with each other because , it's really a strength when you're different, because a high person might be good at something [00:18:00] and a lower person can deal with other things and it's on a team.

It's wonderful. But the problem is before they really understand that they, they don't get along very well often. So it's, um. It helps you know yourself, but then how do I interact more effectively, communicate more effectively, and build better relationships

I grew up in the Philadelphia area, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and, uh, my father was a union leader.

Nancy: So, you know, kind of a combative. We were always having debates and arguments in my family, none of this. So I'm more that debater, push my point of view. And so I have to be aware of that, right? I have to pull it back when I, but you'll love this. My business partner many years ago said to me, Kim, she said, easy killer I got it five minutes ago, but what I'm saying is that interplay between your team members really helps. 

Nia: Definitely, and I've done a few different assessment tools over the years, and actually that light bulb moment when you do have people where there are friction between them, [00:19:00] they suddenly realize that the friction isn't, isn't something peculiar.

It's just something unknown. And actually the knowing and the bringing that out in the open really does help relationships because we, we do the thing, but we're not very good at talking about doing the thing. And that for me is really interesting talking about doing the thing. So tell us about some of the organizations that you use the assessment tool to support their people.

What kind of feedback are you getting about the change and the development that people are seeing in their organization? 

Nancy: Oh, yeah. I mean, It's been like eye opening for people where they can now have these discussions move forward. , it changes the, the temperament of the teams, how they perform together, and even realignment when they need to, to fill the right holes.

Like, in other words, even when we're doing selection, not only do we look at the candidate for the job, we look at how does that candidate going to fit the team. Moving [00:20:00] forward for executives and so forth and all the way down. Getting it right makes such a difference in terms of putting people in the right jobs and developing them in the ways that fit them according to their needs, you know, so I think overall people love it.

They love their own data and it really helps organizations get the people thing right. I will say. Uh, there is a fear factor. There are some people who have a fear of being found out. 

Nia: Yeah. 

Nancy: That's natural because that's how human beings are. However, they're already found out. Whether you do an assessment, those behaviors are happening.

You know what I'm saying? The other thing sometimes that has happened, but I think it's, I think it's a good thing in the end. We even get called in for interventions when someone's in a job and maybe for seven years they've kept somebody and it's a nightmare, you know, it's just constant stress.

They bring us in and what you find every time in all these almost 26 years, every time, the person [00:21:00] was never a fit in the job to begin with. 

Nia: Okay, they're 

Nancy: struggling. I had 1 guy for example: we measure leadership energy. You need at least a 35 or above to be effective in a leadership role.

Okay. And he had a PhD and he was at a university. He had like, 1 percent and leadership energy and they put him in a director job. And he was struggling and he, and so all his risks were showing well, in those cases, what we try to do, if we can, if that's what we find out, if that's what we learned through the diagnostics and through the intervention coaching, working with them, if possible, and in this case, we were able to do it, help them find him a new job, redesign a new job.

If, if he's valuable and you've kept him and he's got this knowledge. What can you do to help this person in a job that they can succeed at. Now sometimes that's not possible, especially if they're really high in the organization. But nonetheless, um, getting people right, helping people get into the right roles where they can succeed.

One [00:22:00] exciting one I had, , we had a client in retail pharma in Canada. And he was a vice president of HR, and he was thinking of moving to another company in the food services that had like 40, 000 employees up in Canada, right? But he wasn't sure he was a fit, and he had been certified in our tools.

So he asked me, Nancy, will you test the CEO to see if we're fit? I said, I'll do it if I can coach him first. So he understands what we're measuring, just like you went through. But I live coach, the CEO turned out it wasn't a fit. So, so no job offer was tendered. So they went their merry way, but that was a good thing.

There's nothing worse than going into a job. Cause this guy was a real change agent, a real Maverick. Well, they were steady as you go So those kinds of things, it may sound kind of a little counterintuitive, but for me, the best thing you can do is find that right job.

Nia: Yes, the lack of knowing is actually more dangerous. So even if it's not what you [00:23:00] expect, the knowing then gives you an opportunity to make an informed decision. 

Nancy: Exactly. And so you want to, we want to get it right and people will soar. Here's the thing, when you're in a job, That you're in your element and your team, you know, your team and you're working together and you know, each other's short sides to where you can help.

That's different than making judgments about people. Oh, they just don't care. Or they're kind of stuck up or whatever we think we might assume things. There's a risk called detached. So people go and hide under stress. They stop communicating. Well, it's not because they don't care. It's because they're stressed and they need a little help, right? It just creates that dialogue that you didn't have before. And that knowledge. So it's, it's been amazing. 

, I have one company that's in a large energy company and they one time decided to go against our recommendation on a hire. We said, no, no, no, no.

It was a strong no on this particular candidate. And they went and it was what we call a faker spinner profile. And they went and hired that person anyway. [00:24:00] And it was a disaster. And then they couldn't get rid of them. So now they always listen to the recommendations on the cutoffs. You know, most people you're going to say, well, pretty good fit.

Here's some things, here's strengths, and here's a couple of watchouts you might want to interview about, but you'll have some that are just not fit at all for that job. Doesn't mean they're not a good person. It just means for that job, right? Amazing. Yeah. So, but many people, you know, have, have a range of fitness, if you will.

We're all human. We all have risks, you know, and all that sort of thing. There isn't that perfect candidate, but there are stronger candidates. And then there's some that are kind of what we call a no go to that job. 

Nia: It's interesting, isn't it? We often talk about recruitment and how recruitment is this one size fits all, you know, you have an interview process and then you sit in front of somebody for 45 minutes and talk about things.

But. Yeah. Interviewing and recruitment process really needs to up its game and it needs to change. And these kind of tools really give you an additional [00:25:00] element to, as you say, it opens questions, it opens a debate that you wouldn't have had before. 

Nancy: Right, it opens insights that you can't see on the interview process.

And I often tell clients, those who interview the best, Are your worst performers, those who come in and are perspiring, a little awkward, , they can often be your stars, but just because somebody is savvy, you know, unless it's like a PR job where that's what they need to do, right.

Nia: Yeah, they 

Nancy: need or sales where that, yeah, even sales, you got to be careful because we have certain cutoff scores that are really important. And when we've had companies and like a, a what medical device. ignore the cutoffs, they got burnt every time. And we, we do validation studies, like extensive studies to know what the cutoff scores are.

And, uh, so if they decide to ignore it, they, they end up having problems losing their good people and having these people don't get anything done. Salespeople don't perform well. So it is not, it's so much better than interviewing, just to be honest with you. Now it helps support [00:26:00] better interviews, as I said, because then you can use it for the interview, but if you're doing interviews alone.

You know, then you're going to keep perpetuating 50 to 75 percent ineffective numbers because that's we keep repeating the same mistakes. Everybody's intentions are good but if you don't have good processes, you're not going to have good outcomes.

And HR tends to, uh, they tend to resist change. Their profiles are such a being like a very process focused, detailed, administrative profiles. They are not change agents, and they actually are risk averse, and they tend to be high worriers.

This is CHROs, right, and, and even, uh, chief learning people. So what happens is even though all this data is out there saying, come on, we need to, we really need to redo this whole people thing. They're not going to do it. They're just going to keep saying things going.

They're not going to rock the boat unless somebody tells them to change it and helps them through that process. And unfortunately, a lot of the consulting [00:27:00] firms and even, you know, universities perpetuate these bad processes. They're not using good tools and they're using their competency models, which are what I call many of them are fiction.

You know, and I can give you an example. There is not 1 human alive that can do all of those competency well. People aren't hardwired that way. But yet, when you get evaluated for your performance, you get at least average to above when you're not. So, when we assessed and we did this thing, we would tell them you're good at these 4 competencies. These no, it was the first time they were being told, Hey, you're good at this, but not this.

And, you know, this is what you need to develop and focus on. So, so that's where I say the fiction. You can't really use that as a compensation evaluation tool when it's when you're falsely evaluating people. Does that make sense? 

Nia: Yeah, definitely. And it's only when you're saying that out loud, because yes, I've worked in organizations where we have competency frameworks, and you do assess people, 

Nancy: yeah, yeah. And like, think about, okay, let's say if being a talent [00:28:00] advocate is one of your competencies, you know, an advocate for your people. Well, if you score two on interpersonal sensitivity out of 100 percentile, and you score five on learning approach, so you don't really care about it development learning is not your thing you'd like hands on. Do you think that leader is gonna be a talent advocate? 

Nia: That's not gonna fit, is it? 

Nancy: No. Now, what can that leader do? Potentially, he might or she might, uh, delegate that to one of her key people to help be, since they're not good recognizing if I had those kind of scores, I'm not good at that, so I'm gonna figure out a way to shore that up.

There's nothing wrong with that, but the key is recognizing it versus ignoring it, and then nobody's developed. 

Nia: Yeah, 

Nancy: the people are cared for. 

Nia: Yeah, definitely. You talk about 11 risk factors, and you've mentioned these risk factors, and they are the behaviours that can derail careers.

I'm really interested in these, and in my book I talk about roadblocks and trip [00:29:00] hazards. So tell us what kind of risks, um, that people need to guard against to really give themselves the best chance to be successful. Are there risks that you are saying that actually of all of the risks that we have, these are the top ones that are absolute derailers. 

Nancy: Yeah. Um, it depends on what type of job you're in and what level of leadership, right? So we do measure 11 most prevalent in leadership. Okay. Over time, egotist number 1, that's kind of those narcissistic behaviors. I'm smarter, better, quicker, la la la in my head. So those people play up really well because they really have this puff puff.

They're stubborn. I'm right. You know, most of our politicians have a high degree of this doesn't matter what side of the aisle. They all have it. Part of what pushes them forward. We see about 70 percent of leaders have some egotist level of egotist. Now, another 1 is [00:30:00] upstagers I mentioned over talking. So, in leadership, we'll see that we see what we call moving against risks fighters.

Those leaders today that move up tend to be more aggressive under stress. That doesn't mean they're effective under stress because they're not. Okay, often, but they kind of push and bully their way to the top. Right? Then we have another set of risks. And as I mentioned, women tend to be more worriers, right?

And so then we also have what we call avoiding conflict and a worrier is one to avoid conflict. And we have a number of those risks detached is 1 who avoid conflict. One false advocate. Now, this one's interesting. That's kind of passive resistant, passive aggressive behavior. It's when I say, you say, Nancy, is this a good idea?

And I go, Oh, yeah, that's great. And inside my head, I think, Oh, that's terrible. But I won't say that to you. Yeah. Right. And that's very prevalent. In fact, one certified coach from the UK, he, um, When the [00:31:00] A. P. A. Americans like Psychological Association changed the personality disorders like every so many years or decades that change the disorders.

And in the last, when we went from 3 and 4, which was, which was in place when we started and our risk assessment, they went to 5. like maybe 12 years ago, and he said, he said to me, Oh my gosh, they got rid of passive aggressive behavior as a personality disorder. And do you know why they did?

Because it was too prevalent in society. So they didn't want to measure it anymore. So we still pick up that behavior. And the reason I say that, but it does manifest in many different ways. That one and I've written articles on it. It can be just polite dissent. I'm too kind to be objectionable. That's often or can be procrastination all the way to the severe of somebody who might undermine or sabotage, but that would come with other risks.

So it's not like risks also work together. So you have 3 ways of coping. And either use aggression under stress, I'm going to [00:32:00] pop off and fight or I avoid conflict. Okay. The 3rd one is and we see a lot of this too is what we call moving towards or seeking affection. Okay. And that is perfectionist and pleasers.

Nia: Now, 

Nancy: the biggest derailer that I have seen over the years for C suite. For like president CEOs or and things like this is perfectionist people that micromanage that are too detailed and they also usually have high prudence to go along with that, which is being to process to detail to focused on operations.

And the rigid what happens is the rigid, and they don't, they're not open to new things and that kind of thing. But that is the one that I, that I've seen more C suite people derail. But they never should have been promoted to those jobs in the first place. So they went, they got promoted and they weren't managing those.

But that, and even in coaching, just to be honest with you, for me, [00:33:00] my toughest client is a perfectionist to help them. And maybe it's partly because I don't, you know, I'm like under five on perfection. So I don't, I don't quite live in that world or relate to it well enough, but it really, but because it is almost like a compulsive thing that they have of everything has to be perfect.

It's a tough one. Yeah. It's fascinating. Yeah, and they they micromanage and want everything done their way They don't give people freedom of expression and you know, they're I had a CEO and he was micromanaging his senior VPs every weekend He wanted reports and it wasn't necessary.

You know, it's like I said to him you can't do this They need their time away. You don't really need it. But I need the information. I want it. I'm like, for what business purpose it was for his personal need. It wasn't for the business. It made him feel comfortable, but it was like, driving everybody else crazy.

And then, of course. He wouldn't stop and [00:34:00] they. Let him go. 

Nia: You know, it's fascinating as you're talking about these people. I'm, I'm, I'm putting names to them over the 25 years that I've been in the world of work. I'm adding names to all these different personalities. 

Nancy: Oh, yeah, we have all kinds of, the stories are pretty amazing.

I mean, um, It's but it's people. It's all us. You know, it's how we behave. And so I take fun of myself, too. I mean, I, I, we all have to work on and be aware of these things so that we don't upset our teams or interfere with effectiveness or, you know, can really help and serve our clients. So it's the one thing I want people to be aware of to again.

Like I said, everybody has risks. It's part of normal personality. I don't want anybody feeling badly about it. What I want is people to recognize it so they can manage them more effectively or come up with techniques and tactics to prevent those behaviors so that they are more effective and happier, but not to it's not to be picking on anybody.

I just I want to be really clear about that. We're not like here to [00:35:00] say, oh, this is, you know. Um, it's part of natural of being human. So it's okay, but, but we don't want it to hurt you or your team, your performance or your career. 

Nia: Yeah. The third layer of my definition of self awareness is regulating your behavior.

And you can only regulate your behavior when you have that self awareness, internal self awareness, you have that self awareness that is fed back from others, and then you can make informed choices. And I think that's as, as you absolutely can. It's that awareness and making that choice. But if you don't have the awareness, you don't have the ability to make the choice.

Nancy: Well, and the other thing that we do with risks, really important, since these are ingrained natural reactions is what we fall into just naturally. When we're coaching and working with individuals, we help them practice new techniques and you really need to practice the changes. You can't just say, Oh, I'm not going to do that anymore.

So if I'm a worrier, for example, um, then I need to practice how to jump into the conversation when [00:36:00] I feel uneasy. Okay. So what I help, especially women with, or what I call pivot terms, what are some terms that I can safely break into the, you know, "Oh, George, that has merit. I haven't really fully, thought that through, but have you also considered this?" That gives me a safe passage into that conversation and saying, I haven't really thought that through.

So I'm not acting like I'm perfect, but here's, have you considered this as well? But the key is, okay. Practicing not going silent. And what I also like to do is give them simulated stress when they're doing this. So they actually feel a little like I am George and I just got, and, and, you know, playing that or whoever it is, Samantha, whoever's the one that's the stressor, and we also help them identify, I have a risk analysis form and it's in my books, actually, my, my latest book is, uh, that's the best way for somebody to get started, like the cheapest ways to, you know, look at the book.

Number one, and then if they can take CDRU coach, um, this [00:37:00] book, the latest one was, it's a little controversial, the title. I don't know if you saw it. Women are creating the glass ceiling and have the power to end it. Meaning we're creating it by going to our risk places and pulling ourselves out of the running and going silent and not being seen, losing visibility.

We need to stop doing that. So that's what this is all about. How to make 

Nia: sure that there is a link in the show notes. So if anybody wants to go and read Nancy's book, you certainly can. 

Nancy: Yeah, the worksheet. What it helps you do is analyze what's the layout.

Like, if I'm a, if I'm a cynic, what's the last couple of times it showed up, what caused it to show up? What was the trigger? Was it a person? Was it an event? What was the situation? And then what was the consequence? Or what was the fallout? What was negative from that? Or how did it hurt me?

What can I do differently? And really start to work on, like I say, I call them pivot language. And people find that helpful. Um, false advocates, one other for false advocates, since it is so prevalent.

They have a hard time speaking up in the moment, right? They're going to be agreeable and shake their head. Yes. [00:38:00] So rather than do that, maybe try to ask a question, which still might be hard. But what I, but what false advocates tells tell me that works best is to say. Let me think about that a little bit more and get back to you rather than in the moment just going.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then they think you're on board and then it goes sideways. Right, because you're not really on board or you're unhappy. A lot of a lot of false advocates just suffer in silence. They feel like they're kind of victims. Does that make sense? Because they've agreed to something they think is, is not good.

They don't agree with it, but they didn't speak up. So now they're regretfully have to do it. Yeah. 

Nia: So one question I wanna ask you before we finish is, if we think about the, the growth of AI technology, what's next for CDRU coaching? If you think about your avatars, where are they gonna go next? 

Nancy: Yeah.

Obviously we wanna enhance as we grow. And we want to enhance, always enhance our technology. Number one, [00:39:00] we are using, it's not one thing I want to be clear. It's not like a gamification experience, you know, you took it. And so we, we're feeding in live scripts about you. To that coach so they can speak in the moment.

It's not like watching a cartoon where, you know, everything's the same. So it's very personalized. So it's complex. Let me just say it's very complex on how that all falls out. So, obviously, always improving our technology, improving the voices. We're moving to more AI type voices that are a little smoother, that sort of thing.

But the, um, And eventually what we really want to do too is link with other organizations who are the repository of all these training and development resources. So we point people to what they need. And then it's going to be nice to point to LMS and other, uh, you know, HR systems. That help people then get that get what they need that whole menu of whatever it is that they need.

Maybe they need. Improvement and communication, or how they can talk, not be so abrupt [00:40:00] with people, that sort of thing. So, again, we're still certifying live coaches. We're doing a hybrid certification for coaches that don't have to get fully certified in our assessments. They can use CDRU coach up front and then do the following on coaching, but we're orienting them enough to our assessments that they can use it and run with it.

So we're excited about that. Live coaching is always great when you can get it, but it's but we want to make sure there's enough follow on after CDRU coach. So I would say that's our goal to follow on to great resources to help people to continue to grow, develop and do the things that they're best at, you know, and find those things.

So we're excited. 

Nia: Yeah, absolutely brilliant. I think it's, it's a fascinating tool and there are so many layers underneath it that underpin it and inform it and I think that's fascinating. Nancy, I've really enjoyed our conversation. I think we could probably talk for hours about this and I'd love to hear more about those personalities and the derailers and all the things you've learned.[00:41:00] 

Um, what I will make sure is that there is a link to, , your website and the show notes for anybody who wants to become assessed in your tools, that they certainly can find out more about it. But for now, Nancy, thank you so much for joining me. 

Nancy: Thank you. And they can reach out to me on LinkedIn directly too.

I'm happy. So thank you so much. I've enjoyed talking with you. 

Nia: Thank you for joining me on today's episode where we aim to develop self aware leaders around the globe to generate kinder, more respectful, and creative working relationships through reflection, recognition, and regulation. Head over to my website at knowingselfknowingothers. co. uk to sign up to my newsletter to keep up to date with my blog, podcast, and book.

Looking forward to having you on my learning journey.