Nia Thomas [00:00:04]:
Hello, and welcome to the Knowing Self Knowing Others podcast, where we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. I'm your host, Nia Thomas. Join me as we talk to today's guest. Today,

Aoife O'Brien [00:00:17]:
we welcome Aoife O'Brien, who is the founder of Happier at Work. She has over 20 years of experience at global companies like Unilever, Mars, Coca Cola, and Kraft Heinz. Anifa excels in data driven problem solving to really boost productivity and engagement. She supports HR and business leaders in medium sized organizations focusing on creating environments where employees can really thrive, and she's got a particular professional interest in imposter syndrome. And we'll definitely be talking to her more about that in a little while. She is also the host of the hugely popular and highly acclaimed Happier at Work podcast. She holds an MSc in work and organizational behavior, and she's a member of the CIPD. Join us as she shares her insights on fostering happier workplaces.

Aoife O'Brien [00:01:06]:
So tell us, Aoife, how were you first drawn to happiness in the workplace?

Nia Thomas [00:01:12]:
Do you know what, Nia? So there's 2 organizations that stand out to me that I worked in previously that really encapsulate what it means to be happier at work, and I think I took it for granted. You know when you work somewhere and you just don't realize how good it is until you work somewhere else?

Aoife O'Brien [00:01:32]:
Yeah.

Nia Thomas [00:01:32]:
And you're like, oh, it was actually really good in that last place that I left. So I worked in 2 organizations, and they were particularly good at the culture piece, at the inclusion piece, and really, really enjoyed working in both of those very different organizations, I must say. 1 was in the UK. 1 was in Australia. Doing something completely different out of my comfort zone. And then I experienced 2 organizations that one was just toxic, and there's no other way to describe it. It had around 50% staff turnover and very misogynistic, toxic, old boys club type of culture. And another one where it was a global organization, and we were the the kind of small part of a global organization.

Nia Thomas [00:02:24]:
And I just didn't feel like I was thriving in any of the roles that I had there. And so I suppose all of that together caused me to question myself, my abilities, what I want, what I'm good at. And, ultimately, I left my corporate career. That's around 6 and a bit years ago now. And I went on and I studied coaching, and I started my masters, as you mentioned, the masters in organizational behavior. And it was during that masters that I asked these important questions, and I said, why was I not happy at work? And I explained to the lecturer, like, this is what happened. And she said, that sounds like a fit issue. So I became obsessed with this idea of fish and what it means to fit in at work and what it means to belong.

Nia Thomas [00:03:10]:
And I did my article or my, paper on that, and then I did my dissertation on this concept of fish. And I didn't tire, and I still haven't tired of that entire concept. And so that's kind of what brought me on this journey. And I suppose for me, that's what it meant to be happy at work. So I took all of the research that I did, and I said, right. This is the research. These are some additional things that I've become aware of, and I've put together this framework that explains what happiness at work actually is.

Aoife O'Brien [00:03:43]:
Oh, amazing. Are you finding that other people are talking to you about this? I suppose it's quite a shock to the system when you are in an organization that operates in one way, and then you move into another organization, you think, oh gosh. This really is different. Yeah. Are you finding people are talking about that?

Nia Thomas [00:04:00]:
I think there's there's a couple of different ways that you can look at that. So the first way, I think, is that all organizations are slightly different. And if you join a new organization, you still have, for want of a better word, a hangover from how things were done in the last organization. You're bringing that with you into this new place, into this new role. You know how to do things a little bit differently. You're trying to find your feet with the systems and the processes and the people, all of that kind of thing. So that's kind of one way to think about it. That's always going to happen because it's always going to be a little bit different.

Nia Thomas [00:04:39]:
You'll feel a little bit like Bambi in the headlights where you're like, I have no idea what's going on here until you get to grips with it, however long that takes. It could take 3 months or 6 months or 9 months or a year. But then there's the other side where it's like, I went from this amazingly positive culture into and it took me a while to put my finger on it. It took me a while to be like, this is actually toxic. This and I probably didn't even have the language at that time. It's only looking back. But it took me about 2 months to be like, something's not right here. Something's going on.

Nia Thomas [00:05:13]:
I do see other people talking about that, but more from a personal perspective or also and on on my podcast as well, we talked about the onboarding process and how important that is rather than just letting people sink or swim. How do you have a proper process in place so that they understand what their new role is and why they were brought in and all of those wonderful things. So I think on a personal level, hearing people's stories of moving roles, going from somewhere that you thought was okay to somewhere that was terrible, and then on to somewhere else that is amazing, but maybe you have a challenge with a particular individual, in the organization as well.

Aoife O'Brien [00:05:54]:
Yeah. That resonates the way you've described that, and it is. It's a shock to the system. I think if you worked in a bad organization and you go to good, it's wonderful. Yeah. But if you if you're in a good one and all of a sudden you step into a bad one and you hadn't realized that this was a thing, that could be a real shock to the system. Could you don't

Nia Thomas [00:06:12]:
I think that's the problem that when you have it good, you don't realize and you completely and utterly take it for granted. Like, I thought this is how work is. It it was always a positive experience. I was always rewarded. I was recognized. I really enjoyed what I did. I really liked my colleagues. And then you go somewhere where you're like, this is really not the place for me.

Nia Thomas [00:06:34]:
And it can't be driven by one thing or another. You know, from from the research I did, I focused on this idea of environment and and the person and how they are in that environment. But there are other aspects to it as well, like your direct supervisor or the role itself. There are different aspects that impact on our experience of work. And me being the total data and research nerd, maybe that's something I'll look into in the future and add another element to the model as well, but it's I think it's really interesting to consider. But I think from from an individual perspective and from an understanding yourself perspective, if you're going through that where you're having a tough time, where you're not enjoying work, ask why. Why is that? What is at the root cause? It's not just that everything is terrible. There must be one thing that you can isolate, that you can understand a little bit better.

Nia Thomas [00:07:29]:
And, hopefully, the happier at work framework gives a little bit of insight into what those things could potentially be.

Aoife O'Brien [00:07:36]:
That's a that's a really good segue into asking you what does self awareness mean for you because, what you've just described is that you have to have a a level of self awareness to be able to work out what it means for you, what an organizational fit is. So what does self awareness mean to you?

Nia Thomas [00:07:55]:
I I love how you've articulated that. So for me, self awareness has always been this idea of understanding yourself, the impact that the environment has on you, but also equally the impact that you have on the environment. And when I say the environment, I mean the people around you. I mean, other people. However, having had you on my podcast, I have now a deeper understanding of it. And I love your 3 layered approach. This idea that it's not just about understanding ourselves and understanding the impact. It's it's about having that reflective practice and changing our behavior as a result of how we are showing up or how we're being perceived in the world.

Nia Thomas [00:08:39]:
And I hope I haven't butchered it, but I suppose it's just deepened my understanding of what that means. It's one thing to know yourself, but it's another thing to manage yourself or to take action based on what you the knowledge that you gain about yourself.

Aoife O'Brien [00:08:55]:
Yeah. Absolutely. The those layers for me are are fundamental because I think self awareness is not just about knowing yourself because that's just introspection for me. It's about all of the other, viewpoints and perspectives that other people bring to yourself because if you think you're one thing and the 20 people that you spend your most time with think you're something else, then you're probably that thing. So I think that is the real good moderator. You've talked to us about your happier at work framework. What is it? How can it help people? What is its structure? What is its purpose?

Nia Thomas [00:09:30]:
Yeah. So for me, it it all comes from the research that I did. And I won't go too academic on it because I know, you know, not everyone loves that. Like, I love it. I imagine you love nerding out on those academic type of things as well. But for me, it boils down to 3 pillars. So what came out of the research I did was the importance of values and understanding the alignment between the values of an organization and the values of an individual. And I'll go into these in a bit more detail once I've explained the the model.

Nia Thomas [00:10:04]:
And the next was about need satisfaction. And that was an eye opener for me because I was like, needs at work? Who has needs at work? And, again, I'll I'll go into that in a bit more detail. And then the third element from an academic perspective, they talk about demands and abilities and your ability to meet the demands of the role. That was the least important factor, but I've kinda switched that to talking about strengths and whether or not you're getting to use the strengths that you have at work. So if you imagine they're the 3 pillars, but that needs to be underpinned by psychological safety at work because you have to feel free to be able to express yourself, to feel safe in the environment, to try to fail, all of those things. And then it's over pinned by, this idea of leadership and having effective leadership in place to execute on those three pillars. So I'll talk 1 by 1 across the pillars. So the the first idea about the the values and the importance of values I mean, in relation to self awareness, it's knowing what your own values are.

Nia Thomas [00:11:10]:
Knowing, first of all, that you have core values as an individual because I certainly didn't know that. I knew that our company had corporate values. I knew that those corporate values had nothing to do with my day to day experience at work. And the example I like to use is is that one of the core values was simple, and it was the most bureaucratic organization I had ever worked in. So Yeah. There's a total mismatch there, and it really drives a lack of trust in leadership if they're talking about these things like, oh, simple. And these are our values. And so the first thing I would say about values is as an individual, understand what your core values are.

Nia Thomas [00:11:50]:
And that's not an easy process, and it's not a quick process. It will take time, and it will take an investment of introspection to understand, well, what is it that's really important to me? Some things I find that really help, are looking at what are the behaviors that you really detest in other people. So are there particular things that really bother you about and I mean it about their behavior, how they show up in the world. And that might give you an inclination as to what is important to you. So if someone shows up being really boastful and bragging, then maybe humility is something that's actually quite important to you, and that's a core value of yours. From an organizational perspective then, it's about having clearly defined values. Not every organization does. So have those clearly defined because if you don't have them, you do have a culture and it is being impacted.

Nia Thomas [00:12:45]:
It's just not controlled in any way by you. It's kind of a free for all. So have a really clear definition of what those values are. Make sure that that is the lived experience of the people in the organization as well. So that is the the values piece. It needs that

Aoife O'Brien [00:13:02]:
Yes. That you're talking about this. I was talking to my colleagues about this yesterday and we said culture eats strategy for breakfast, and that's exactly it.

Nia Thomas [00:13:10]:
Yeah. Totally. You have to have to have that in place. Yeah. Because if you if you don't, then yeah. It just kinda it goes willy nilly. And if if there's a mismatch or if there's a if there you're saying one thing but behaving in a completely different way, then it really erodes trust in the organization as well. So the second element is, the need satisfaction piece.

Nia Thomas [00:13:36]:
And I did my research particularly on this self determination theory, which is, it has 3 elements of motivation from a need satisfaction perspective. So the those three elements are autonomy, relatedness, and competence. Autonomy being a sense of choice and control over what you do and how you do it. Relatedness then, I associate with, like, how do you get along with other people? Do you relate well to the other people on your team, in the organization? But, also, how do you relate what you do on a day to day basis with the bigger picture of what the team, the department, the organization is trying to achieve? And, also, how do you relate what you do on a day to day basis in the bigger grander scheme of your life? Can you make a connection between what you're doing at work and what you want from your life, essentially? And then competence is the third one, and this is an idea of feeling capable of doing your role, which is why feedback is so important. And when you have too much competence, you might feel like you're bored or you're not challenged enough. So it's really important to have a degree of challenge with that. You're not just doing stuff you can already do, but you have a sense of challenge in in the day to day work that you're doing. And then if you have too little competence, maybe you feel like an imposter.

Nia Thomas [00:15:02]:
You could feel total imposter syndrome with what you're doing. So those are universal needs. Everybody has them. And in the same way that we have that kind of you have to get the balance right with competence. If you think about autonomy and during the pandemic, it was like suddenly overnight, we all had all of this autonomy, and some people didn't know what to do with that. So, again, with autonomy, it's about finding the balance. You need to give people sufficient direction and guidance on the one hand, but also step back and let them figure things out for themselves. So too little autonomy and you're micromanaging or you're being micromanaged and too much autonomy and you're flailing and floundering because you lack direction.

Nia Thomas [00:15:47]:
You don't know what you're supposed to be doing. You don't have clear expectations. So that's all around need satisfaction. Those are the 3 universal needs that we all have. But, of course, as with everything, we have unique needs as well. So someone might have a need for status or power. Someone might knee have a need for a higher purpose that they're serving. There's lots of different needs that people might have.

Nia Thomas [00:16:11]:
The thing with needs is you may not know that you have needs or where they're being satisfied and met or whether they're not being met. But you will know when you're feeling really frustrated. What frustrates you at work at the moment? Are you feeling like you're being micromanaged? Then you don't have enough autonomy. And if you feel like, I could do this job with my eyes closed, you need that greater sense of challenge. So understanding what the driving frustration is for you at work is key to making sure that your needs get met. And when your needs are met at work and you feel satisfied, that's a driver of feeling a greater sense of connection and that you belong and that your values are aligned with the values of the organization.

Aoife O'Brien [00:16:59]:
I'm thinking many years ago, I I did a little bit of training on person centered planning. And the question is, what do you want and what do you need? And it's a one page profile that you develop, and it and I think that when you're new in an organization, it's a great tool to introduce yourself and introduce others to to you. And this idea of what I want, this is what I need, it's really quite difficult. Yeah. You know, for me, it's I I need to be fed by 12:30, lunchtime, because after that, it just goes downhill. But those kind of things, you really do have to think about them, don't you?

Nia Thomas [00:17:32]:
Yeah. You do. Because you'd I think we don't automatically know because we don't talk about these things at work. We don't well, I certainly never knew that I had needs at work. Interestingly, these things can be applied in your personal life as well where you feel frustrated. But coming back to the workplace, we need to just get it out in the open and talk about that. And I love the idea of having a one pager. What do I want? What do I need? And really thinking about what that is.

Nia Thomas [00:17:58]:
You might struggle with what that is, but I'm hoping that this gives a sort of a framework. At least, hitting those top 3, the autonomy, relationness, and competence bits hopefully goes a long way to thinking about, okay. So where I'm where are my needs not being met, and what do I need? I need challenge, and I need direction, but I also need to the freedom to figure things out and to make mistakes, and that's okay. So I think thinking about what it is that you need at a at a deep down level and making sure that those needs are satisfied and having those sometimes difficult conversations with people about what those needs are and how to get the needs satisfied as well.

Aoife O'Brien [00:18:43]:
Yeah. Definitely. And your 3rd pillar?

Nia Thomas [00:18:46]:
My 3rd pillar is about strengths. So that is I've kinda changed the language on it because from an academic perspective, it's it's the area that we focus most on if you think of a job ad. If you think of someone advertising a job or even an internal role, They lead with these are all of the things that we require of you. And we don't really talk about the strength that someone needs to have of to fulfill that role. And we don't talk about the culture. We don't talk about the values. We don't talk about how you will be satisfied and rewarded in this role. So I'm putting it as my 3rd pillar because it's the least important factor.

Nia Thomas [00:19:31]:
I'm changing the language to strength because I this demands abilities thing, like I said, is the least important factor, but I think strengths is actually really important. Understanding what your strengths are, do you know? Can you honestly say to yourself that you know what your strengths are? Do you have open conversations with your team about each other's strengths? I know we certainly didn't when I worked in a corporate environment. Do you know what each other's strengths are, and do you openly talk about those? Can you pair people who have complementary strengths? So maybe one person is a visionary big picture thinker, and another person is more detail oriented and can outline the steps to get there or can challenge this big picture airy fairy thinking and and rein them in a little bit. Yeah. And they would be a good pair to work together. So the strengths piece is really about understanding yourself better. So maybe for this is where the self awareness piece comes in, understanding more about yourself and your strengths, what you bring to the table. Maybe when you use this is something that's come up in conversation recently as well.

Nia Thomas [00:20:39]:
When you use your strengths too much, then how does that hinder you? Because we can use our strengths too much, and then it becomes a weakness as well. So I think having that feedback and having having that loop going on for yourself to continuously understand yourself and how you're showing up and how you can improve.

Aoife O'Brien [00:21:02]:
So with all of that in mind, your 3 pillars, for you, what does a happier workplace or a happy workplace look like, be like, sound like?

Nia Thomas [00:21:14]:
I think that it's different for every single individual. And it's so if you think of it from the perspective of the framework, there could be some things that are more important to some people than others. For me, personally, I really like challenge and a sense of belonging. Like, that is what I really need to thrive. I I want to feel like I fit in and I belong where and I want to feel like I'm having an impact on the world, and I can see what that impact is. So that is the relatedness piece. Like, I want to see a direct relationship between the work that I'm doing on a day to day basis and the impact on the end user, the end client, the internal client, whoever that might be. So for me, it's the impact piece, the sense of belonging, and the challenge.

Nia Thomas [00:22:08]:
And by challenge, I mean, I'm getting to use my strengths and I'm getting to to stretch myself.

Aoife O'Brien [00:22:14]:
You also talked to us about your interest or your particular focus on data. So if we think about what you you need in a happy workplace and your interest in data and detail. How does all of that come together to support you or drive the work that you do now?

Nia Thomas [00:22:33]:
Really great question. So, a few years ago, probably 5 or 6 years ago now, I took this quiz called the sparketype. It's spelled how you might think. So spark with a and then with an e, sparketype. And in it, there's 10 different sparketype. And in it, I came out as the scientist. So that's my primary sparkety type. And then I have a shadow sparkety type, which I think is called the Maven.

Nia Thomas [00:22:58]:
I get confused between the names. And the may the Maven likes to learn and likes to gather knowledge, and the scientist likes to solve problems.

Aoife O'Brien [00:23:07]:
Okay.

Nia Thomas [00:23:08]:
And it was a light bulb moment for me because it meant that I was doing what I like, it ticked the boxes in my entire career. That's what I did for my entire career, gathering data to solve marketing and sales problems, essentially. And how that's translated into what I do now, and it's kind of it comes in fits and starts. So when I first started, I was like, how do I how do I use data? How do I use people data? How do I address the gender pay gap? So I kind of get distracted, let's say, by some things. At the end of the day, it really boils down to how can you assess what is the missing piece in the so if we have this framework, what are the areas that are most important to you? What are the areas that are not being met or that are maybe a lower score, let's say, as an individual or as an organization because you can use it from both perspectives. And how do we close the gap of that? So, again, it goes back to my entire career using databases where the data is already there. I'm analyzing data. I'm spotting opportunities, presenting back to clients.

Nia Thomas [00:24:25]:
And now it's less about that hard data and more about the people data and what's going on for people, which is a challenge for me because I like things that are quite concrete. I like the kind of accountancy. It's black or it's white. So this is a challenge for me, but I still love using those types of insights to help people to understand a little bit more about what they need to do differently in order to create those happier working environments. So hopefully, that gives a flavor of how it's translated from a career and a lifetime of analyzing data to okay. Now I have the opportunity to have an impact on on people's working lives, which for me, if I think of problem solving and that being the core of what I do, the biggest problem that I see or that I personally experienced is that most people are not happy at work.

Aoife O'Brien [00:25:17]:
Interesting that you're talking about the people data because that is that is so nuanced and so difficult to pin down, isn't it? The one that always comes to mind when we're talking about those kind of people related surveys is the NHS survey, so the National Health Service in the UK. When you're working with organizations and they are looking for data driven answers to a problem that maybe they they don't even know what the problem is in in in a level of detail yet, What kind of what kind of challenges are they having, and how were they using that data to put those solutions in place?

Nia Thomas [00:25:58]:
The solution that I'm looking to build at the moment is so at the start of this year, I was like, I want to take this, and I want to turn it into a technology platform so that it's something that people can use themselves as an organization. They can use this. They can add it into their own people systems, if you like. Another time, I had this idea that it would be like a centralized hub where people could come to and they could access tools and resources. And then there would be a host of consultants, let's say, that they could work with to drill into this very specific area. Because if you think about, I suppose, the breadth of happier at work and all of the different aspects, I can't talk to absolutely every single bit. I suppose for me and my perfectionist tendencies, I want to make sure that it's as comprehensive as possible. So that would require a team of associates to work on these different elements at the same time and deliver to that, if that makes sense.

Nia Thomas [00:27:03]:
Okay. What I'm seeing is that from a data perspective so if we backtrack, say, a few years ago when I was like, oh, people data is where it's at, and that's what I'm gonna help people with, and that's my background is with data and solving problems. What I found was that there are so many organizations who are just not using the data that they have. They have this wealth of data at their fingertips, but they don't know how to use it. And I imagine a lot of that is because people who work in HR didn't get into HR because they were particularly good at data and that they understand it. And what I'm finding is the people who work in HR that I have encountered are very process and policy driven as opposed to being these whizzes with, okay. So we've identified this as an issue. How do we use the data that we have? Because they have tons of it to solve this problem.

Nia Thomas [00:28:00]:
So I'm not seeing that there. I would imagine, and I'm sure you've got listeners all over the world. I will speak from an Ireland perspective because Ireland, I think the uptake on using HR and people data is very low. But from the UK, I think you're a little bit more advanced, and I would say the US and maybe other parts of Europe are a little bit ahead further than that.

Aoife O'Brien [00:28:24]:
Yeah. Certainly workforce data and workforce analytics were certainly something that the NHS was very focused on. But, again, I don't know if that is in terms of the very factual turnover, how many people do we have, what's the whole time equivalent, as opposed to the NHS survey, which is done, I think it's once a year, that will give you that, are people happy at work? Other do they trust their managers?

Nia Thomas [00:28:49]:
And I

Aoife O'Brien [00:28:49]:
guess those are the really tricky questions and answers that people really need to work with.

Nia Thomas [00:28:55]:
Yeah. It's also just a point in time. This is the other thing to bear in mind. So if you've had bad day at work, you might give a negative score to all of those. And so what I'm seeing emerging as well from a technology perspective is a lot of companies, and I mean, service providers as opposed to the the kind of companies or the HR themselves. So service providers emerging who are doing real time type of stuff, who are doing, more frequent touch points, like, to the point that they could be doing it daily or they could be tracking it weekly or whatever it might be. So there's loads of different things available if you want to understand whether it's the sentiment, whether it is, you know, how people are feeling after a particular type of event and and things like that. So there's the hard numbers that you were talking about, like the turnover and the cost of hire and the time to hire, all of those kinds of things that you're like, oh, we have to bring that down.

Nia Thomas [00:29:53]:
And it's like, we don't really like, why are you trying to bring it down? You need to understand the reason behind all of those things. But then there's the, like you say, the softer type of things and understanding, well, how are people feeling at any given time and and what's driving that feeling of how they're feeling at work. And and, you know, going back to this idea is that I had a a negative interaction with my manager. Is it coming to the end of year review and I didn't get the result that I wanted? Or did I have a compensation conversation, and I'm not happy with the money or whatever it might be. There are things that are always driving that. And I think if you can look at that in over real time, and again, not my area of expertise to kind of to do all of those touch points. For me, it's more the holistic framework of how can we address all of these issues. How can you identify, well, which is the biggest driving factor of your organization or you as an individual to not either create this happier working environment or not feel a sense of happiness at work.

Aoife O'Brien [00:30:57]:
One of the things that I've been looking forward to having a conversation with you about is imposter syndrome. So I've heard you talking on other podcasts about imposter syndrome, and I have this theory that as people are more self aware, they realize, what they don't know, and and we know that that's one of the elements of self awareness is just suddenly you realize what you don't know. And I wonder whether that feeds imposter syndrome. And there's the Dunning Kruger effect, which is that for me, it almost feels like the opposite of imposter syndrome.

Nia Thomas [00:31:30]:
It's Yeah.

Aoife O'Brien [00:31:31]:
The less self aware you are, the more you have this notion that you're highly competent. But, actually, the data suggests that the people who think they are highly competent are the ones who are least competent. So confidence and competence don't necessarily go hand in hand. And I'm wondering if the converse is true, if more self awareness means that your competence reduces and therefore imposter syndrome grows. Yeah. Where where do you stand on that?

Nia Thomas [00:31:58]:
Well, that's something I I always thought as well. So let's take a step back and talk about imposter syndrome and what it is. Like, for me, it's it's beyond self doubt. So we all suffer from self doubt. Imposter syndrome is this underlying fear that you're going to be found out as a fraud. So all of your deepest, darkest fears are going to come to light. You're gonna be exposed either by yourself and your own incompetence or be exposed by someone else who comes knocking at the door to say, hey, Aoife. You know how we gave you that amazing opportunity.

Nia Thomas [00:32:30]:
Well, we made a huge mistake, and you didn't deserve that at all. So that's what impostor syndrome is, and it's this fear. Now the what you're talking about in relation to self awareness, that's what I always thought that. That the more you know, the more you know you don't know. Yeah. I think I've articulated that okay. But the more you know, the more you realize how much more there is to know and in comparison to that, how little you know. So there's a couple of ways that you can think about this.

Nia Thomas [00:33:02]:
You can think about this from the perspective that that can exacerbate your fears because suddenly and maybe it depends on the the type of imposter syndrome that you have. And doctor Valerie Young has done some amazing work on the on the different 5 different types. But let's take the expert type, for example. So if the expert type is the kind of person who feels like they have to have all the answers, they have to know everything about a subject before they can be called the expert or be referred to as the expert. And so if you're an expert type and you have, you suddenly become aware that, wow. There's all of this stuff that I didn't know, but now I know that there's a huge gap in my knowledge. And now I feel like a total fraud. I can't call myself an expert.

Nia Thomas [00:33:48]:
I can't be seen as speaking on this topic because there's so much more that I don't know. And the reality is that we're never ever going to know absolutely everything. What we tend to do, especially when we have imposter syndrome, is compare ourselves to other people. And we assume that along with the overlap of knowledge that we have with someone else, that they have this vast amount of knowledge that we are are not aware of, and we discount the vast amount of knowledge that we have that they're not aware of. So there will be an overlap in our knowledge, but we compare ourselves and we think that we're falling short because we're comparing the overlap of knowledge with the vast amount of stuff that we don't know as well. There's another way to look at that also that as you gain self awareness, you have a greater appreciation of what your strengths are and what you bring to the table. And I think really, truly acknowledging that is a way to combat imposter syndrome. So really acknowledging yourself, building up your self belief in the context that not everyone is going to know absolutely everything.

Nia Thomas [00:35:01]:
And you are free to have an opinion, on whatever topic it is that you want to talk about. It's free speech, but also maybe try having an informed opinion before you start talking about something. So for me, there's a couple of different ways to look at it. I'd be more inclined to agree with you that the more we know we don't know, the more that we can feel this sense of imposter syndrome, both from the the expert type. And I'm also thinking because I have a huge perfectionist tendency as well. That is another one of the imposter syndrome types. The perfectionist might want to make sure they get everything right or they want to know the right course of action for which they're gonna need all of the possible information that's out there. And so, yeah, it could be something that exacerbates it.

Nia Thomas [00:35:53]:
So the more you know you don't know and the more you've grown in in awareness of yourself and and the impact and others around you, then this could be something that is very triggering.

Aoife O'Brien [00:36:04]:
So if you think you are a sufferer of imposter syndrome, what do you do with that? How do you move away from it? How do you maybe learn to live with it?

Nia Thomas [00:36:15]:
Yeah. So the first thing I always say is the awareness piece. So you need to be aware that it that you are suffering from imposter syndrome. So oftentimes, we can be aware that such a thing exists, but, oh, you don't get it. I really am an imposter. So the awareness that it could potentially be imposter syndrome, the acknowledgment that it is imposter syndrome that's driving the behaviors. And someone challenged me one time on on LinkedIn a few years ago and said, why do you call it suffering? It doesn't have to be suffering from imposter syndrome. And my challenge back was, it doesn't have to be suffering from imposter syndrome.

Nia Thomas [00:36:55]:
But if you're holding yourself back in some way, if you're doing something that impedes you getting what you want from life or achieving your goals or whatever it might be, then that is suffering because, you know, you're you're not reaching your full potential. So first of all, again, I have a model around this, and I've always talked about the the ABC. So a is for acknowledge. Acknowledge that it is imposter syndrome. Give it a name. Again, when I first started talking about imposter syndrome, people were like, I can't believe this is a thing, and it has a name. I've been feeling like this for years, and I've been hiding it, and I've been keeping it a secret because I thought I was the only one. So just knowing that it is a thing and it has a name, I think, is is a great place to start.

Nia Thomas [00:37:41]:
I talk about b then for belief. So build up your own self belief. How do you do that? Is that getting feedback from other people? Is that doing some inner work on yourself to build up your belief? Is it keeping a folder of testimonials of lovely things that people have said? So when you've had a terrible day or got a rejection, you can refer back to that folder and you can, you know, help yourself to feel a little bit better. And then I talk about c, which is courageous action because people think that they need to feel confident in order to take action. But, really, what you need to do is commit to taking action. And when you make that committed action, so it might be one small step that you can identify. And for anyone who's listening today, think of one thing that you feel like imposter syndrome is holding you back from. And what's one small action that you can take? When you start taking those small actions and you're having a mild amount of success with that, it builds up your confidence to start taking bigger steps and more action.

Nia Thomas [00:38:49]:
Now I like to also reframe this idea. So we have this view that something is either a success or a failure. But what if you shifted that view that everything that you're on this journey? And it's not success or failure or pass or fail. It's I'm on this journey, and I've had a setback. And the setback on this journey is a learning opportunity for me. What will I do differently the next time? And then, so that's all about courageous action. I've recently added in kind of this bonus thing because what I was realizing was people were getting in their own way, and they weren't taking that action. And, my bonus one so there's a, b, c, and it's d, is do it anyway.

Nia Thomas [00:39:37]:
So you feel like an imposter and you don't want to speak up in a meeting, do it anyway. You feel like you don't have the confidence to stand up on a stage and present, do it anyway. 1 of my past podcast guests actually I've seen her talking about this. I don't think we explicitly covered it on my podcast, but she was talking about these imposter feelings. And she talks about it from a, you can do this and you can also do this at the same time. So you can feel really uncomfortable while also having a difficult conversation. So just because you feel uncomfortable, just because you don't feel confident, doesn't mean that you can't still do those hard things that you think are hard. Just another, I suppose, slide aside or note to add on that, we often perceive other people as being really confident when actually, internally, we can't see how they're feeling.

Nia Thomas [00:40:33]:
So maybe they're feeling really nervous, but they're not projecting that on the outside because who wants to listen to someone who's projecting this image of being really nervous? But then when we are internalizing what's going on, we neglect to take into consideration how other people are feeling inside. So we might be feeling really nervous, and we look around and think, wow. No one else is feeling nervous. That's because you can't see how they're feeling. So bear that in mind, I think, that other people have these internalizations, and and they could be projecting this image. But, actually, you're the only person who can feel what's going on for you inside and maybe they're feeling exactly the same way.

Aoife O'Brien [00:41:15]:
When you talked about your c and d, I was thinking of Susan Jeffers' book Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. I think it's Yes. And and it's absolutely that. But, yes, you can be feeling, awkward, but actually you step onto the stage anyway.

Nia Thomas [00:41:31]:
Yeah. Exactly.

Aoife O'Brien [00:41:32]:
Then you do need that courage to be able to do that. Exactly. So before you go, tell us a bit about your podcast because it is hugely successful. How how did it start? What what brought you to the idea of podcasting and and where are you gonna take it?

Nia Thomas [00:41:48]:
Yeah. Really good question. So for me, why did I start? Because I love listening to podcasts. I will devour podcasts. And I love listening to yours. I love the insightful conversations that you have. I was listening to the one and I can't remember the lady's name, but it was about instability at work. And I was like, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Aoife O'Brien [00:42:07]:
Yes.

Nia Thomas [00:42:07]:
Yeah. Amazing. Like, just incredible insights in that. So for me, because I love listening to podcasts, I had an idea and a microphone. I think I was midway through my master's at that stage. And I just thought, why not? And I'll do it. And I probably went in completely blind, had no idea, but I just did it. And I did all the editing myself, and I did everything myself.

Nia Thomas [00:42:30]:
And I found guests for the first few episodes just within my network. Like, that's how you get started doing something. I think if I look back now and could give myself some advice, I'd probably do it quite differently. But at the time, it was just like there weren't that many people doing podcast. It was growing at the time, but then it it really took off during the pandemic, I think. And I just kept at it. I love the conversations that I have with people. I love the people that it connects me with.

Nia Thomas [00:43:00]:
It's not always easy. It takes up a huge amount of time in proportion to the reward I get for it, which is nothing. You know, clients do find me because of the podcast. I meet amazing people like yourself and other people, you know, for collaborations and for conversations, which is amazing. But I pay to host the podcast. I pay to have the podcast edited, you know, all of those things. In terms of the future, like, there are some ideas that I have that I haven't executed yet necessarily. I constantly innovate on how I do things, so I started using AI in the podcast, for example, to help me to write the show notes, to remind me of what are some of the key points that we talked about on the podcast episode, to do video clips.

Nia Thomas [00:43:48]:
Like, AI is incredible for the kinds of things that it can do at the moment. So that is, you know, something that I will continue to do is innovate how I do things. As a kind of a data nerd, I'd love to bring in more of the analytics and search engine optimization to make sure that people who are looking for the kind of content that I'm putting out there are able to find it in Google or, yeah, or YouTube or anything like that. It is available on YouTube as well, so that's something I've done. But I'm also toying with the idea of having other formats. So one recent thing that I did, I used to always have a synopsis at the end of every episode saying, and here's the key points and the takeaways. I've split that out, so now it's 2 episodes instead of 1. So if people want to listen just to the kind of highlights or the, you know, here's the key actions.

Nia Thomas [00:44:39]:
If they're going taking out their dog out for a walk for 10 or 15 minutes, they can listen to that episode. But another idea I had was answering listener questions. So in a 5 minute blast, tell me what your question is, and I'm gonna answer that on the podcast and do do with that type of format. Having said that, I will put a caveat and say, it's, as I mentioned, an extraordinary amount of work to do what it is that I'm doing already. So in order to add an extra format, even though it would only be a 5 minute episode, it's still gonna be another huge amount of work and headspace and all of that kind of thing to make that happen. So I don't know whether that will be the case. I will continue to do what I do as long as I'm getting that kind of positive acknowledgment and feedback from people who listen because it is hard and there are so many times where I'm like, I can't fit this in anymore. I can't I just can't make it happen, from a headspace perspective.

Nia Thomas [00:45:39]:
I would love to get so much more strategic about how I do things. So thinking into 2025, basing my episodes around the real questions that people are asking me right now as opposed to, here's the guest that I have, here's the topic they're talking about, and and just going with the flow, but really having that topic in mind before I have the conversation so that we really stay on track. Like, the conversation can go anywhere, and that would be one of my strengths. But I want to come at it from the perspective of this is the question we're trying to answer so we can explore all of these things so long as it answers this question.

Aoife O'Brien [00:46:17]:
Oh, wow. Oh, I'm inspired, and I aspire to be as as dedicated and as technical and as capable as you are on podcasts. The one thing I have done with AI recently, on episode 70, I used an AI voice as the introducer. So bad. Yeah. Because it was actually, I was interviewed by somebody else, and it's only on YouTube. And it was such a good conversation. I've put it out as a podcaster, as an audio podcast, but I put an intro with an AI voice.

Aoife O'Brien [00:46:47]:
I think it sounds okay. But listeners, tell me if you don't agree. Well, that's amazing.

Nia Thomas [00:46:52]:
I love that idea.

Aoife O'Brien [00:46:54]:
Yeah. It was good fun. Aoife, thank you so much for joining me. I I have learned a lot. If, listeners want to find out more about your 2 frameworks that you've talked about, where is the best place they can go and find you?

Nia Thomas [00:47:08]:
LinkedIn tends to be where I am, and I'll spell my name because not everyone will be able to spell it. But if you're listening to this or watching this on YouTube, then go and check me out. So search for the happier at work podcast on whatever platform you're using, and I am happier at work HQ. I'm sure it'll be linked in the description anyway. Happier at Work HQ on YouTube, so go and follow along there. That will be linked to all of my various websites and social links. But LinkedIn is the place that I enjoy most and that I hang out most in. I I do I am present on other platforms, let's say, but LinkedIn is my favorite, and it's a place I I like the most and and hang out the most.

Nia Thomas [00:47:49]:
But my name is spelled a o I f e, pronounced ee fa. So a o I f e, O'Brien. O'Brien O'Brien is standard spelling. It's with an e. Some people get confused that it's with an a, but, O'Brien with an e. So Aoife O'Brien on LinkedIn. And let me know where you found me as well. So mention doctor Nia Thomas in your intro, in your connection request, and I look forward to connecting with you there.

Aoife O'Brien [00:48:14]:
We will indeed make sure that all of your links are in the show notes so listeners, watchers, you can go and connect with Aoife. Thank you very much. It's been brilliant.

Nia Thomas [00:48:24]:
Thank you so much. I've absolutely loved this conversation. Thank you so much.

Nia Thomas [00:48:29]:
Thank you for joining me on today's episode where we aim to develop self aware leaders around the globe to generate kinder, more respectful, and creative working relationships through reflection, recognition, and regulation. Head over to my website at knowingselfknowingothers.co.uk to sign up to my newsletter to keep up to date with my blog, podcast and book. Looking forward to having you on my learning journey.