00:00 Integrating spiritual practices into leadership coaching widely.

04:03 End of hyper-materialism, neglect of spiritual wisdom.

08:57 High-earning professional seeks deeper career and life meanings.

12:27 Wisdom comes through years, beyond early success.

14:45 Wisdom and experience crucial for effective leadership.

19:50 360 feedback fosters self-awareness through diverse perspectives.

23:58 Self awareness: strengths, weaknesses, perceptions, eliminate blind spots.

24:46 Use self-awareness to optimize decision-making and leadership.

28:43 Make life adjustments for greater personal fulfillment.

34:11 Encourages leaders to disconnect and gain perspective.

37:58 Technology's duality: beneficial advancements or dangerous path

39:20 Debate on coexistence with technology persists today.

42:27 Discussing global self-aware leadership; join newsletter.

Nia: Hello, and welcome to the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast. I'm your host, Nia Thomas. Join me as we talk to today's guest. 

A very big welcome to today's guest, Fabrice Desmarescaux, who is an expert in enhancing leadership performance and consciousness. Fabrice is a seasoned advisor to chief executives, blending Eastern spirituality with Western management. With over 30 years of experience, including as a McKinsey partner, he integrates meditation, yoga, and retreats to focus on happiness, connection, and purpose. He's the author of The Art of Retreats.

And Fabrice specializes in leadership development and transformative retreats, empowering leaders with a diverse toolkit of assessments and psychometric instruments. Fabrice, it's wonderful to have you here. 

Fabrice: Thank you very much for having me here. It's a pleasure. 

Nia: So tell us about your career and [00:01:00] particularly how your executive leadership and management expertise really connects with Eastern spirituality and yoga and meditation.

How do all of those things fit together? 

Fabrice: initially the two were not connected. So I had a career in I was a strategy consultant. With McKinsey specializing in financial services in parallel, I discovered yoga, Eastern spiritualities when I moved to Asia, which is now almost 30 years ago.

And I developed an interest in in yoga and practicing yoga and meditation in particular, and then broaden that to other traditions Buddhism in particular. So the two were not particularly. Connected, but as everything in life, when, when you have two, two passions, one for leadership and the other one for spirituality, it's, it's hard to keep them separate.

So I was fortunate to have the opportunity in a way to transform my career. [00:02:00] And, and instead of continuing being a financial services expert, and then I became a banker I decided to take a turn really and,, and give up the banking career that, I was on to specialize in leadership development.

I did that about 20 years ago now, , 18, 20 years ago. And as part of my activities coaching leaders, coaching their teams developing next generation of leaders, I started integrating the, the, the tools. Of Eastern and now also Western spiritualities retreats in particular. And we find the practice of retreats in, in pretty much every spiritual tradition around the world as well as mindfulness, meditation movement energy work.

And, , and a few other practices that again are not particularly specific to Eastern traditions, but a number of, you know, if you think meditation, for example [00:03:00] it clearly originated in, , in the East, in India, in Hinduism and yoga, and then later in Buddhism. But today. , we find meditation in Christianity, for example, and the number of practitioners of say Catholicism or Christianity at large are very serious meditators.

And so I, I find that these tools or practices that originated in Eastern spiritual traditions have now become more mainstream and much more accepted by leaders. Around the world, regardless of their nationalities, origin, and even regardless of their religious convictions. And a lot of leaders and a lot of people today in the world don't have convictions particularly.

You know, they're either agnostic, or they were born and raised in one tradition, but they're not practicing. And I find that the tools That I bring to [00:04:00] to my clients increasingly resonates well, so I don't know. Actually, if you have observed that I'd be curious to to compare notes on that. Yeah, but you know, we've I think we're coming to the end of an era of hyper materialism and hyper materialism Uh, scientificism, I don't know if the word exists, but we're trying to rationalize everything and explain everything away with science and, and we've lost sight of two, three, 4000 years.

of spiritual education and spiritual wisdom that had made the human race what it was, you know, without its flourishing and its beauty and, and, and its development. And we've completely put that aside and say, you know, we're going to separate the materialistic scientific view and you do whatever you want with your religion and your spirituality, but please don't [00:05:00] bother us.

Don't talk about it. Don't, don't, you know, never the. The twin shall meet and, and, and we're going to focus on making money and, and being super materialistic. I think we're, we're, we're seeing the results of this. Yeah, 

Nia: I'm definitely going to ask you more about that because I, I, I'm seeing this shift.

I'm referring to it as ultra digitalism and hyper humanism. And I think as we go further towards that ultra digitalism, we have to balance it with hyper humanism. And I wonder if we will become more interested in that spiritual element because of that very reason. But we, before we talk a little bit more about that, I wanna ask you, so you were in the finance industry, which is very.

It's very detailed focused and it's quite technical how did your colleagues respond when you made that shift from that very technical focused [00:06:00] area of professionalism to something like spirituality, meditation, yoga, etc. How did they accept that? And I'm just thinking you mentioned it was about 20 years ago.

And I guess it was still quite new then. Mm hmm. 

Fabrice: Yes. Well, the shift didn't happen overnight, right? So it's not like one day I was wearing a, a suit and a a Hermes tie. And and, and then the next day I shaved my head and appeared in white robes and chanting mantra, right? So, so it was not an overnight transformation.

It was a very long, gradual process. During which I first did my own discernment, if you want, and realized that I, I didn't particularly enjoy working in the financial services industry and I guess the financial industry didn't particularly enjoy having me there. And I, I went through that soul searching and, [00:07:00] and, and.

Reflection on where, where would my skills be better employed and, and, but perhaps even more importantly, what would give greater meaning to, to, to my life. And that's when I decided to, to, to shift and, and that's a pretty big, big shift. If you think of it going from being a well paid banker to, to, to starting a new career recruiting and developing leaders it's, it's not necessarily an easy one, but that, that really resonated with me very well.

So, so I made that switch. I was about 40 years old, 42 years old. And. Progressively, I started again on a very rational basis because I had been in the financial world for so long. I had pretty extensive networks. And so I joined a global executive search firm that was specialized in recruiting senior executives in the financial industry.

So CEOs, heads of [00:08:00] businesses, CFOs, et cetera, you name it. I mean, all the C suites of the financial services world. And, and I took a fairly scientific approach to recruitment as, as, as we should, I guess, if, if you're a reputable executive search firm, you say, okay, well, what are, what is the least of skills that we want to see in the candidates that we're going to bring to our clients?

What is the experience that we want, et cetera? What are the behaviors that ideally these candidates would have exhibited in the past, et cetera? So it's a fairly rational approach. And, and that served me well, but little by little, I realized that a number of the candidates I was advising and a number of the clients I was advising also came to me to say, well, you know,, on paper, this thing looks good.

This person looks good, but there's something I can put really my finger on. And, and, and I had quite a number of conversations like that, or senior executives coming to me and said, you know, Fabrice, I'm on paper, everything looks good. I have a great job. I make tons of money. But I feel [00:09:00] empty. And that's when I developed these conversations with my clients and my candidates saying, well, maybe, maybe we can sit down and think a little bit more about that and have conversation that shifted from, is this job good for me or not?

Or how do I progress to the next level to how do I give greater meaning to my career? And by extension, how do I give greater meaning to my life? And I've some, you know, in, in two minutes, I've summarized probably 10 years of, of evolution. So it's not like the people around me suddenly were surprised that it's progressively, I guess, I built a reputation, at least in, in, in, in my market, in Asia, here in Southeast Asia, for being the guy that senior executives would go to if they wanted to have someone that they could.

Speak with in, in complete confidence someone who [00:10:00] understands them because I have been there and I've spent, you know, not by now, probably the last 30 years of my life in, in the, the, the, the corridors of the C suite and the boardrooms, et cetera. So I understand exactly what, what it's like to be, to be a CEO or a senior executive, but at the same time, I, I, because of my other career, if you want, as a, as a yoga teacher, as a meditation teacher, and as a student of spiritual traditions, particularly Christianity and Buddhism, I was able to bring a different dimension to the conversations we were having.

And not that I'm pushing any spirituality on, on, on those conversations. If people are not open to, to considering that, I'm not, this is not my brand to say I'm going to convert you. You know, I don't do any. Any proselytism or anything like that, but I think the, the, the spiritual traditions give us very useful tools.

Just like philosophy gives us interesting tools, just like psychology gives us extremely [00:11:00] interesting tools to reflect on what gives us a sense of meaning and fulfillment. That goes way beyond making money, having a great title, the corner office, the car with the driver, and all these things. So that's, that's, I don't know if that answers your question, Nia, but that's how, you know, very gradual evolution of, of what I've been doing over the years.

Yeah. I 

Nia: think that's interesting. And as they say, an overnight success took 20 years. So I think that you're saying that that shift was something that certainly that you recognized and others recognize over quite a long period of time. 

Fabrice: This may resonate with you, as, as we get older, we may lose some of our brain cells, perhaps in terms of, you know, I mean, look, I studied mathematics when I was young, I did an undergrad in, in math and physics. I do not understand a single page of the books that I was studying. And when I go [00:12:00] back to the problems that I was solving when I was 19, 20 years old, I, I would be absolutely incapable of, of even, even understanding the question today.

So clearly we lose some IQ points as we get older, but on the other hand, we start appreciating complex patterns and, and wisdom. Much, much better than younger folks. And so potentially also part of what I bring to my clients today, I would not have been able to bring that to them 20 years ago, no matter, you know, how successful I could have been in the, in the banking world.

You know, I was at before becoming a banker, I was at already at McKinsey in my first career. I rejoined McKinsey recently. I was elected a partner in my thirties, you know, you could say this, this is, you know, this person can do anything, but I actually believe that we develop wisdom in [00:13:00] our second half of life that cannot be accelerated.

You cannot teach it to someone who's 20 You just have to live the years. 

Nia: Yes, I think that's right that, that you just have to live it and you have to gain that experience and you can't accelerate it or, or squash it into a five year period. You literally have to live those 20 years. And that reflective practice is, is what allows you to share that learning with others.

And yes, I absolutely see that as somebody who's heading towards 50. I, I definitely think that you take a little bit of wisdom, another year, another, another grey hair and a little, another little bit of wisdom. 

Fabrice: Absolutely. I think it's Carl Jung who said beware of the wisdom you haven't earned.

Because, you know, it's easy to read a book and then regurgitate what you've read in the book. But if you haven't lived it in your flesh, and you haven't experienced it, and then taken the time to make sense of it, it's actually not [00:14:00] wisdom you've earned, and you need to be very careful with that. And that

quote of Jung has always resonated with me. 

Nia: That's interesting that you say that. I'm listeners, watchers will have probably seen me write that I walk the walk as well as talking the talk. And for me, that's really important that being able to commentate on leadership is from a perspective of having lived it and experienced it and observed it.

So I think I might spend a little bit of time researching that quote, because maybe that's part of. One of the reasons why that is really important to me, that maybe that I feel like I haven't lived it yet. Maybe I need to live to 60 and 70 in the world of work before I feel like I've achieved that little bit of wisdom.

Fabrice: Well, I think we can have wisdom at every age, but it really develops and blossoms with experience. And that's why it's always difficult and sometimes dangerous to, coming back to our topic of leadership, to try [00:15:00] to accelerate careers. And, you know, we see leaders today in the business world or in the political world who are very young.

I think, you know, my country of origin, I haven't lived there in almost 40 years, but my country of origin, France, I believe they have a prime minister now who's in his very early thirties. And, and, and so, you know, you can do great things at a young age. It's not a. A reflection that only older folks can, can do great things.

I think Mozart composed, you know, beautiful beautiful pieces when, when he was also very, very young. But, but, you know, we can probably see patterns. With the benefit of experience that are not necessarily obvious to someone who hasn't lived the years. That, that's all I'm saying. Yeah. Very interesting.

And, and Rugen, maybe it's a way to make myself feel good because, you know, anyway, I'm not gonna be have the brain of my twenties anymore. That's gone. So I, I, I, I need to find reasons to, to, to be happy in [00:16:00] my sixties, . 

Nia: Oh, definitely. I, I often talk about mindfulness meditation as being a really effective first step for growing that self awareness.

And I say that particularly for people who are new to self awareness and maybe they, they've never sought feedback and don't know how that might look or feel when they're asking the question or in receiving that feedback. What are your thoughts on using meditation or mindfulness as that first step to self awareness?

Fabrice: That's an interesting question. I'm not convinced. 

Nia: Okay. 

Fabrice: And, and I'll tell you why. I think meditation is a fantastic path of self awareness. But it's a very hard one. How many people around you tell you, Oh, you know, I've tried meditating, but I can't you know, my mind is too busy, et cetera. And I'm like, yes, of course.

Welcome to the club. Right. I mean, I meditate a lot and you think my brain is not busy and, and you [00:17:00] know, the, the constant chatter and and, and, and voice in my head, of course we all have that, but the point of meditation is to

push through that and become the witness. Of the noise in our head, and we become the witness of our thoughts. We become the witness of our physical sensation. We become the witness of our feelings, our emotions of the sounds that, that, that we can hear outside our inner sounds. So the meditating is simply being a witness.

Nia: Yes. And I 

Fabrice: think that's all witness. Now that's a bloody hard path. If you ask me, and I've been teaching meditation for more than a decade now. So in the spirit of being pragmatic and helping clients make progress quickly, I often recommend other, I always suggest meditation and to those who are interested, you know, we practice meditation and I give them resources [00:18:00] and, and, and things like that.

But I always say, you know, there's other ways to develop self awareness that do not include. Sitting in silence, you know, with your thoughts for, you know, 5, 10, 20 minutes, 30 minutes daily. And so, for example, one of the tools of self awareness is do an assessment. Work with a coach, work with a psychologist, work with a colleague, do a test online as long as it's a proper repute, you know, reputable test.

Do a, do a, do an assessment of your personality. Do a big five. Personality test and see where you are on, on the extroversion versus introversion scale. See where you are on the agreeableness scale. See where you are, if you're, if you're neurotic or not, you know, and it's, and that will tell you something about yourself.

You may believe that you're. even killed, then actually you're going to find that maybe you have a little bit of a tendency to be neurotic or something. So, and then you can go and [00:19:00] ask colleagues. I think that one of the very easy form of increasing self awareness is to do 360s, particularly in the corporate world.

Nia: Absolutely. And that was something I was going to ask you about was, was assessment tool, because the third part of my book is dedicated to giving people Tests, tools, techniques, method to develop their self awareness. And in your introduction, I made reference to the fact that you do use assessment tools and psychometric tools.

Which tools do you think are the most effective or which ones do you like best? Or is it a case of every situation might need a different assessment? And what are your thoughts on assessments? 

Fabrice: Yes. And, and you're absolutely right Nia, every, every situation potentially requires a different set of tools.

I, I use, I'm a big fan of 360s. Like I find that hearing from the people who know you best, coworkers, peers, [00:20:00] your bosses, your subordinates. And that's why we do the 360, because, you know, you just don't want just to talk to the boss. Because someone who's good at sucking up will have very good review from the boss, but then the people below them will absolutely hate their guts.

And so having a balanced approach to listening about, you know, asking questions and listening about someone, I find is a fantastic way to get to know someone. And then if there's trust, you, you play back what you've heard. And that is a great way to develop self self awareness. And that's for me my, my go to approach.

So when I coach a senior executive, for example I will very often start with a 360. I'll say, you know, give me a list of six or eight people that you trust. And I want a cross section of subordinates and peers and, and bosses or former bosses. And I will blend, I will listen. I will blend that. I will make it [00:21:00] anonymous so that you cannot track who said what.

And I always do that when I have the conversations. I tell people, look, I'm, I'm, I'm going to take notes, but I'm, I will not attribute what you're telling me. So, so feel free to, to share that with me. And I find that this is like really self awareness 101. I mean, this is where you. You know, better than any psychometric test, which can be more or less calibrated and, and, and reliable, et cetera.

If you're doing a psychometric test for an assessment, for example, then people can game the system, et cetera. If, if we go to tools that are automated I have two main ones that I use. I'm happy to share if you think it's, it's, yeah, so I, I, I'm a big fan of the leadership circle that's, that was developed by Bob Anderson.

Again, it's a 360 multirater. Tool it is calibrated. So you see where you are against other senior executives. So you see if you're 75th percentile or, or wherever on the [00:22:00] number of reactive tendencies, so in a way strength. That has been overused. Okay. So for example, your ability to get things done and, and be a go-getter can quickly turn into micromanaging and being a control freak.

If you do too much of it, your, your ability to be good at building relationship if it's overused, can turn into people pleasing. Right? So, so it's, it's a very good good tool. And then on the, on what what they call creative side a number of leadership competencies that have. have really been correlated to leadership effectiveness, including self awareness, including authenticity, including systems thinking, et cetera.

So it's a good tool. The other one that I use with clients who are a little bit more Open to something a bit more esoteric is the Enneagram. Now essentially it's a personality typing into nine main personalities. I don't use [00:23:00] it to put people in boxes, but I use it to say, look, you know, based on your results, it sounds like you could be this, or you could be that.

And why don't you read it? And, and. Why don't you read it with your spouse or why don't you read it with your best friend and have a conversation. And so I use it as a conversation starter. What I like about the Enneagram is that it gives us a path for growth. And so there's no good types, bad types.

It is what it is, but you could be, say type three achiever and you could be unevolved or you could be extremely evolved and, and, and that path for growth that is charted by the Enneagram I find always opens up interesting conversations. 

Nia: Oh, interesting that you made reference to those two tools.

So listeners, watchers, those tools, they might be something that you want to explore a little bit more. Fabrice, we've talked about self awareness, but what I haven't asked you is. What does self awareness mean to you? How do you define it? 

Fabrice: Well, I think [00:24:00] self awareness can encompass multiple dimensions. But very simply it's, it's you know, number one, what are your strengths and weaknesses?

So the opposite of self awareness, if you want, would be blind spots. And, and if I'm going back to the world of of, of leadership, I mean, look, we can use self-awareness for anything in life. You could use self-awareness for couple relationships. But I'm not a, I'm not a couple therapist. I'm a, I'm a leadership and, and CEO coach, right?

So I use it for what I'm, I'm good at. But I, I think it's the opposite of blind spots. So, we, we, we want to increase self awareness so that we become more aware of what we're good at, what we're not so good at. How we're perceived by others. And then, if you want to go a little bit deeper, I would say we I would use self awareness with my clients to see really what gives them energy.

And, and, and on the energy scale whether we're talking about physical energy, you know, how are you [00:25:00] feeling today? Are you at your best? Is this the time, you know, to sign on a billion dollar, Acquisition. Are you is or perhaps, you know, given where you are with your energy level, your mental focus or your emotional state, maybe you wait another day and you and you sit on it because you may not be at your absolute best.

And you could be making a mistake today. So is this a decision that you want to make today or wait until you find yourself in a better place? And I find that a lot of leaders is. Initially may not have developed a great self awareness of, of the energy level. So you, you see a lot of macho attitudes about pushing and having meetings at 10 PM, you know, it doesn't matter.

Let's do it. And it's been proven that when you're sleep deprived or it's too late or whatever, you're the quality of the. Decisions that you make, the way you perceive situations decreases enormously. So having that, that awareness of when are we at our best so that we [00:26:00] can be a more effective leader.

Also, emotionally, how am I feeling today? And if I've had an argument with my daughter, Perhaps this is not necessarily the best time after that to have a performance evaluation with one of my colleagues, because I might just torpedo the poor person who has nothing to do with the argument I had in the morning with my daughter.

So if I'm self aware, then I will say, you know what? I'm, I'm Cancel my meetings, you know, tell my EA, cancel my meetings for the day, I'm just going to focus on reading stuff, writing stuff you know, but I'm not going to go one on one on, in, in situations where I really need to be present and, and, and focused and emotionally stable.

So just a couple of examples like that. The last stage of self awareness if we go even, even deeper than that is. What gives us a sense of meaning. So, you know, are we [00:27:00] really

doing the, having the career being in the role that truly corresponds to what we're meant for and, you know, a lot of people go into careers because that's what their parents wanted for them. Or just, you know, like me, I was good at math. And so I got an engineering degree and then I got a business degree, but is this really what, you know.

My, my, my true calling in life to be an engineer. You know, I, I practiced for a few years and then I, I stopped because this, this was not me, but that's what I studied. Right. And so we, we, we fall into careers very often by accidents. And sometimes it's perfect, and that's exactly the career that we wanted, and sometimes it's not at all.

A lot of people that I know, for example, have become doctors because, at least in Asia, I [00:28:00] don't know how it's today in the UK, but in Asia where I live, it's very respected. To be, to be a medical doctor and parents push their kids if they have the, the ability to study hard and, and, and the rest, they push their kids towards these professions.

And I've spoken to a number of doctors who really don't like practicing medicine. It's not them. 

Nia: Okay. 

Fabrice: And and so, and there's also the curse of people who are talented and, and hardworking is that whatever you do, you're going to be successful at it. Which is good and bad because, you know, if you're, if you're smart and hardworking, pretty much you, you know, you, you can succeed in any career.

And unfortunately that might not, might not be the career for you. So I'm not, I'm not saying, you know, have an awakening when you're 40 years old and throw your career in the trash. In, in, in the wind and, and go and, you know, make, go retire to a farm and, and breed goats. That's not what I'm saying, [00:29:00] right?

But given where you are, given all the time that you've invested in your life, in your career, in building relationships, et cetera, what adjustments could you make that would gravitate you towards something that maybe is going to fulfill you a little bit more? And, and that is also, I think, an important component of self awareness, but that one doesn't have, you know, happen in, it takes more than five minutes, whereas I can do a very quick 360 and tell you, you know what, people really admire what you've achieved, but they don't like working with you because they think you're a control freak and they would like to have a bit more space.

That conversation I can have, you know, this is, yeah. 10 minute conversation or 15 

Nia: really interesting and I, I, I really loved hearing what other people think about self awareness and how they define it. Your, your use of the idea of energy. Do we understand what gives us energy? What depletes our energy?

Not everybody talks about that as a definition of self awareness. I [00:30:00] really like that. I think I'll probably be sharing that idea and making sure that people are reading what you're writing and listening to your podcasts and wherever you're talking. Cause I really like that idea. Something that we, we talked briefly about is the retreats.

That you lead and your book is called has got retreats on the very front cover. Tell us about retreats because I don't think that culturally in the UK, it's something that we really lean into. So tell us more about them. What happens on a retreat? What do leaders benefit from a treat? And maybe even how do they access a retreat?

Fabrice: Yeah. So there's retreats again come from multiple spiritual traditions and some traditions have retreats that are extremely formatted and, and, you know, for example, if you do a Vipassana retreat which is an Eastern mindfulness approach you will meditate probably 14 hours a day in silence, complete [00:31:00] silence.

You'll be given two meals a day one breakfast, one lunch, and after that, that's it for the day. No alcohol, no reading, so you cannot bring books, no writing, so you don't bring notebooks. You're completely, you cannot even look at the other participants in the eyes. So it's almost, even though you, you will be with other participants, it's almost like being completely by yourself without any other contact with any other human being, and you do that for 10 days.

So, yeah, that's, that's one protocol of retreats. Other retreats can be much more loosely defined. So the way I, I define retreats is any time that you spend in silence. In solitude in a space that resonates with you and where you're willing to explore your, your, your soul. So that's the four S's of of retreats silence, solitude, space, and soul.

And essentially what it means is silence is to go [00:32:00] into a soundproof chamber. Silence is essentially disconnecting the devices. Disconnecting the phone, not being on email, not being on Instagram, not being on social media, not, not having that constant level of excitement that comes from the devices that, that we use.

And it's also not communicating with others. So it's essentially, it goes with solitude. Solitude again. It doesn't mean that you go in, in, in the middle of the desert where the nearest human being is 500 kilometers away. It means that you're by yourself. Now you could be in a, in a coffee shop, you could be in a In a hotel lobby, you could be on the beach, but as long as you are by yourself and you have disconnected all your devices, then you, you, you fulfill the criteria of silence and, and and solitude.

Then I, I emphasize the use of space because we are, whether we are aware or not, we are extremely [00:33:00] sensitive to, to the, the, the space that surrounds us. For example, nature. Which I think is a great place to do retreats, has a very calming. Effect and that's been physiologically researched and demonstrated, you know, being surrounded by trees, for example, lowers your blood pressure and your cortisol levels, et cetera.

So having and whatever floats your boat, right? If you're a beach person, then go by the sea. If you like mountains, go, go, go to the mountains. If you like trees, go, go to the nearest park next to you and there's There's plenty of beautiful parks in the UK, I'm sure yeah, I, I actually I know. And so, and, and the last criteria is, you know, go with the intention to deepen your self awareness, right?

So when I say connect to your soul, it's essentially deepen your self awareness, see what's inside. And so that's, that's a retreat. Now, it could be one hour, could be half a day, could be one day. For, for [00:34:00] senior leaders, it is difficult to take time, particularly when I tell people that they have to disconnect and not be reachable.

They, they, they, they're like horrified. And so I say, well, why don't you start with a couple of hours? Some, some people do it over the weekend, right? Well, it's not expected that you're going to be responding to all your emails on a Sunday. So say, okay, disconnect your phone from 9am to 9pm on Sunday and see what happens when you do that.

So that that's my definition of retreats. Why, why retreats? You know, I, I call my book the art of retreats because there's, there's a, as much art as there is science in it, but it's a practice for leaders to just take a little bit of distance from the constant action. buzzy-ness, which doesn't put you in the best place to really take perspective and see the big picture, see the complexity of the systems that [00:35:00] surround us.

When you, when you're the nose on the wheel, you, you, you just see, you know, the tree, you don't see the forest. So a retreat is a way to, to take that perspective, to, to as Ron Heifetz would say, go on the balcony instead of being on the dance floor. And I, I think it's a absolute essential practice of leadership today.

And it has to be scheduled because if you leave it to chance, you're never going to have the four hours that you need on a Friday afternoon or, or the Sunday that you could spend alone instead of going out with friends. So it has to be a deliberate scheduling of time off, how much time off that I leave anyone to, to decide for themselves.

But I personally put. time of you know, a few hours of retreat almost every week, one, one hour, two hours. And then longer retreats when I have holiday time. 

Nia: That's something to really think about. If you're a senior leader and you're in a very stressful, [00:36:00] busy maybe in an emergency situation where you're having to respond to emergencies, I think that thinking about how you take time out to switch off, to look inside for that very short period of time or longer periods of time.

If you have that opportunity, I think it's, it's. Really something that we need to be thinking more about as leaders. I think even if you think about self care. I think that is necessary, both mentally and physically, you need that, that time. And that brings us very nicely on to our conversation, where, where we started our interview.

I have definitely become more, more aware that, that we've got AI and technology and we're becoming more reliant on that in our world of work. And I think that we're going to need to become increasingly more humanistic and people centered and I'm developing this spectrum with, as I mentioned, hyperhumanism on one side and ultra digitalism on the other.

What are your thoughts on, on [00:37:00] those relational skills or spirituality that we're going to need as we move further into this really ultra digital age? 

Fabrice: I don't necessarily put one in opposition to the other. So I don't see humanism on one side and digitalization on the other as the two ends of one spectrum.

I see them as actually orthogonal dimensions. And so we can be digital or not, and we can be humanistic or not. And in a way, you know, we're not going to stop the progress of science and all these tools like AI, in a way, they're tools. You know, they are what we will make of them, and they're neither good or bad in themselves.

It's the use that we make of them that can be good or bad. Just like atomic [00:38:00] energy. It can be good or can be bad. It can be used to, to power cities , and , give light to, to millions of people, or it can be used to make bombs. So I think there's clearly one dimension of how do we deal with the increased presence of technology in our lives.

And, and the increased capabilities that technology brings, including AI. AI is really in its infancy today. I've not been impressed yet, but by what AI can do. But it's, it's, I'm sure there's going to be a day where, where I will be impressed. And, and on the orthogonal dimension to that is how do you, how human do you want to be and how deep do you want to look into what makes us truly human with, with all our qualities and, and you know, can we appreciate as, as the Greeks used to do beauty and goodness and truth.

And, and if we lose sight of one, then we're going to take a [00:39:00] very dangerous path with digitalization and technology, which we have started taking, by the way but if we develop at the same time or humanistic abilities, I think we can build a world that will be sustainable. technology enabled because I don't think there's any, I mean, we're not going back to using candles , to you know, have light in the evening.

, you know, I mean, some people want that, you know, they talk about, negative growth and going back to whatever. I just don't think it's ever going to happen. But it's how to, how to coexist and make the best of of technology. You know, that debate on technology is not new.

I remember reading I can't remember in which book, but Heidegger the, the German philosopher was already concerned about the invasion of technology in our lives in 1954. And here we are 70 years later, and we're still having that conversations about, you know, are we. Are we the masters of technology or are we the slaves?

And that's what Heidegger was [00:40:00] talking about in 1954, 70 years ago. Now, when you walk in the streets and you see all the people looking at their phones and, and, and being completely estranged from one another, and not even looking at when they cross the roads, et cetera, I can see how a lot of people have become slaves.

Technology. And that is worrying. That is worrying. This is not a destiny. We can change that part of the work that you do, and part of the work that I do. And plenty of other people are working tirelessly to, , to Increase our, our self awareness and, and, and reconnection with what makes us human so that we don't become the, the slaves to our social media and, and digital technology.

Nia: Very interesting conversation. And I'm sure we're going to. Talk more about this globally as time goes on and as, as you say, as AI becomes more interesting , it'll creep further into our homes and I'm sure we'll be talking about [00:41:00] them in terms of the impact that it has on our working lives far more over the next five to 10 years.

But for now, Fabrice, thank you so much for joining me. I've learnt a lot and I've got some things that I feel like I want to explore and get to know more about. So thank you very much for setting my little grey cells off to think about different things. Fabrice, how can people find you or connect with you if they want to hear more about what you have to say?

I 

Fabrice: think the easiest is on LinkedIn. So, you know, people can look me up and, , and follow me or connect with me. My, my email address is also on on LinkedIn if they, if they want to reach out. So that's, that's probably the easiest. My book is The Art of Retreat for any. I wrote the book with leaders in mind because that's the universe I understand best.

But quite frankly, the practice of retreats I believe is, is useful for anyone in any walk of life and any age and occupation. . And the book is really a guide, it's, it's [00:42:00] a very practical how to take time off and what to do when you take the time off in solitude and silence. What would you do so that you can deepen your self awareness and your inner journey?

So that's the best way to connect. 

Nia: Amazing. We will make sure that there is a link to Fabrice's LinkedIn in the show notes and to his book. But for now, Fabrice Desmarescaux, thank you so much for joining me. It's been really interesting. 

Fabrice: It's been a real pleasure. Nia. Thank you for having me. 

Nia: Thank you for joining me on today's show where we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. If you want to make sure that you keep in touch with what's going on in the world of self aware leadership, head over to my website and sign up to my newsletter. Looking forward to having you on my learning journey.