Nia Thomas [00:00:04]:
Hello, and welcome to the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast. I'm your host, Nia Thomas. Join me as we talk to today's guest. Welcome to today's episode. I'm delighted to introduce our guest Kate Jones today. She's a visionary leader with over 30 years of experience in personal and organizational change. Kate founded NEON in 2013 to transform how we live, lead, and work through coaching and consulting. She specializes in creating deeply human organizational cultures, working with purpose led leaders and teams to drive performance and impact without burnout.

Nia Thomas [00:00:45]:
So whether you're a CEO looking to enhance leadership impact or an experienced professional seeking inspiration for your next chapter, Kate's insights can really guide you towards meaningful change. So get ready to be inspired by her passion for bringing more color and humanity into the world. Welcome, Kate.

Kate Jones [00:01:05]:
Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

Nia Thomas [00:01:08]:
So tell us about neon, and and what's this association with being deeply human and bright colors?

Kate Jones [00:01:15]:
So I founded Neon in 2013, which was after 10 years of working in a management consulting company. And actually, I'd really enjoyed that time, very different to the 10 years of social work and social care and probation work that I'd done before that. But I had found it quite a gray metaphorically gray world. And I was in Scotland with my, dear friend and my goddaughter, and we were trying to find a name for what was gonna be my new company.

Nia Thomas [00:01:48]:
Okay.

Kate Jones [00:01:48]:
And I was trying to describe I mean, Isobel must have been about 11 at the time, if not younger, kind of what the company was about. And we came up with the word Neon. So really the grey of many organisations for me, not just management consulting companies, but loads of organisations, really is about a more transactional way of doing things, a more mechanistic way of doing things, organizational cultures where people are not really connected to each other, where there's not a lot of creativity, as opposed to an organization of metaphorical neon colors, which is more connected, more vibrant, more energetic, more human, all of those wonderful things that I believe in so strongly. And also in terms of individuals and how we live our lives. So, so many of us live a more faded out version of ourselves for reasons that I mean, I sometimes do myself. I think for reasons of fear and habit and expectation. But when we find ways of really stepping into a different way of living, that for me is when we have kind of all our metaphorical colours switched on and we're living a more authentic, life. We're finding ways of bringing who we really are more fully to the world, etcetera.

Kate Jones [00:03:04]:
So it's really it's really about that. The grey to the neon.

Nia Thomas [00:03:09]:
That really is quite a a beautiful description, and I'm and I'm reminded. I was, speaking to Sophia Paunter on the podcast a couple of episodes ago, and she describes heavy and light cultures. And even though we're talking about weight, there's light and light and the neon. So, yeah, there's definitely a connection there.

Kate Jones [00:03:27]:
Cross over

Nia Thomas [00:03:28]:
for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So tell us, how does self awareness fit into creating a deeply human organization?

Kate Jones [00:03:39]:
Well, obviously, I kinda suspected that you might ask me that question given what your what what given what your podcast is about, but I'm I'm gonna struggle to say it in a in a short version. But I guess a lot of what I do is around leadership development. So what I'm kind of most passionate about is is enabling leaders to to develop the skills and attributes that they need to be able to develop what I call more deeply human cultures. And I have a I'm the architect of of the deeply human leadership model, which kind of describes the 5 c's of deeply human leadership. And one of those c's I mean, maybe we'll come on to what the other the the others are later in the conversation, but one of those c's is consciousness, which for me is all about emotional intelligence, about the ability to have self awareness, to understand the impact that you're having as a leader, consciously or unconsciously, on the environment and on those around you. So it's a kind of key attribute for me of being a deeply human leader is being able to understand yourself the way that you come across when you're at your best, you're not at your best, trying your hardest to be at your best as much of the time as possible such such that you can have as useful and positive an impact as possible in your role as a leader. Yeah. So largely, I guess, about about impact, being able to have as useful an impact as possible.

Nia Thomas [00:04:59]:
I really like that description, that consciousness. So I I ask so many people how they describe self awareness and what does it mean to them, how do they find define it. And that word doesn't come up very often. So I I think I'll I'll put it in my little book as one of those ways of describing self awareness. I think it's it's one that people really do associate with. It's that switching on the light.

Kate Jones [00:05:22]:
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. As we're switching on our lights kind of inside yourself. So I think often, you know, I mean, in sort of 20 odd years of working with different kind of leaders and teams and organizations, especially when people are trying to lead change, they're always focusing on the external world and kind of what other people need to be doing differently and how other people need to change and if only the team or the wider workforce would understand x, y, or zed. And it's not always the case, but often it's the case that that leader is totally omitting to shine the light inwards and kind of say, what is it about me that is either making this change difficult or in what way am I standing in my own way of kind of enabling this change to succeed? How is it that I might need to change myself in order to enable this change to to happen? So, yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Nia Thomas [00:06:17]:
You can't change others. You can only change yourself.

Kate Jones [00:06:19]:
Exactly. Exactly.

Nia Thomas [00:06:20]:
Indeed. So you you've mentioned a little about about leadership. How do you define a deeply human leader?

Kate Jones [00:06:27]:
So that is the, the 5 c's of deeply human leadership.

Nia Thomas [00:06:30]:
Okay. So

Kate Jones [00:06:31]:
and interestingly, actually, when so this model, I kind of came up with soon after I left my corporate consulting career and set up Neon. But at the time, it started off as the 4 c's.

Nia Thomas [00:06:43]:
Okay.

Kate Jones [00:06:44]:
And it's become 5 in the last year, so I'll say a little bit about that. And also, originally, it was just the 4 c's of effective leadership. And then about it was only about a year ago that I really I I was doing a kind of my own little strategic review of my work as neon. Neon was coming up to being 10 years old, and I thought, oh, I just wanna check whether I'm kind of what is it that almost like the the words that run through me and my work like a stick of rock, and these words kind of deeply human sort of popped out of me. And, you know, as all the textbooks say about purpose, when you kind of really kind of find an articulation of your purpose, it was just like a sort of kathunk moment in inside. It was like, that's it. And it's very much kind of what I'm about as a person myself, not just about the way that I work or what the way that I see leadership. So the first of the 5 c's is clarity of purpose.

Kate Jones [00:07:36]:
So a deeply human leader is somebody who is really clear about what they stand for as a leader. So what they stand for from a values point of view, you know, why they do what they do, but also somebody that can really bring that to life day to day in their organization. Because I think even in purpose led organizations that I work a lot with, where ostensibly there's a very clear statement of purpose above the door in terms of what Oxfam will say for children or shelter or whichever organization it might be, what they do, day to day people can be so caught up in the hamster wheel of the slog and the grind that they don't necessarily feel very connected to purpose. So a deeply human leader is somebody that is able to create pathways to meaningful work for people on a day to day basis. So there's clarity of purpose. Second 1 is connection, which is all about relationship. So being able to create meaningful relationships of trust with people that people in your teams, people that you work with. I mean, yeah, I could probably talk for the whole podcast just about the relationship piece.

Kate Jones [00:08:44]:
The 3rd C is all that we talked about is consciousness, which is about emotional intelligence and self awareness and being a force for good really, and kind of taking responsibility for your impact. The 4th c is creativity, which is really about creating environments of belief. So I think there are so many so many organizations where the workforce doesn't really believe that what they're doing is really adding any value or they don't believe again, particularly in purpose led organizations, don't necessarily believe that they're going to achieve the kind of ambition of the organization because it's hard. So, you know, a deeply human leader for me is somebody that can create a sense of possibility, that can instill in people a sense of belief and agency that they can actually influence and achieve what their what their ambition is. And then the 5th c, which is the one that is is the newest, might seem a bit strange. It seems a bit obvious in a way that that it that it is one of the 5, is care. So a deeply human leader for me is, first of all, somebody who and this links, I think, to the self awareness piece, somebody that is able to, look after their own well-being. So I see self care as being a prerequisite for effective leadership, because the whole thing about putting your oxygen mask on before putting it on anybody else, you can't you're not gonna be of any use if you're if you're exhausted or burnt out, etcetera.

Kate Jones [00:10:11]:
And secondly, care for the people that you work with, having just caring about their well-being and the extent to which they are thriving in the environment that you are leading. So they're the 5 components for me of a deeply human leader.

Nia Thomas [00:10:26]:
And I'm really interested in that because so much of what you said, I'm drawing lines to my model of both self awareness and my self aware leadership compass because care is the first element or the first direction of my compass. And within my definition of self awareness, there's reflection, recognition, regulation, and that recognition piece that you've talked about impact. And the way that I describe my mission is about creating kinder, more respectful, and creative working relationships. So there are That's

Kate Jones [00:11:02]:
a massive cross border.

Nia Thomas [00:11:03]:
Lines to join us. It is quite Yeah. Quite phenomenal in in how how that connection between that human or humanism or person centered leadership, it really does connect with self aware leadership.

Kate Jones [00:11:15]:
Yeah. And I I mean, you talk about kindness. I mean, kindness doesn't begin to see, but it could do. I could kind of I could cry. Yes. Okay. Because, yeah, I'm a big I'm a big, believer in it's funny actually because a long time ago, I remember probably about 10 years ago, I remember being in some sort of seminar thing where I heard the word grace being used in the context of there being, wouldn't it be amazing if there were more grace in the in the boardroom? And, I mean, I remember it to this day because I remember at the time it feeling like I don't know. I think felt quite moved by it, but it was also such a strange word for me at that time, not long out of a corporate consulting career, to sort of find mentioned in the context of the corporate world.

Kate Jones [00:11:58]:
And then kindness is another one, which I don't think in the 10 years that that I was working in the consulting company that I worked for, which by the way I loved and remain very loyal to, but I don't think I ever heard the word kindness skews in the context of leadership or organizational culture. And yet, funnily enough, I think it was last year, I saw a report written by PA Consultant Group, I'm naming them, they're the company that I used to work for, about leadership and talking about one of the main attributes of, effective leadership being the ability to be kind. And I was like, oh my goodness. Even PA are now talking about it. So, yeah, I love the idea. And it for me, it fits both into the connection bits of the 5 c's and also obviously into the into the care bit. So, yeah, there's lots of crossover between between you and me and what we're up to, I think.

Nia Thomas [00:12:49]:
Yeah. Definitely. Do you think that there has been, a shift over time? Because as you're saying about care and kindness, I've seen kindness as one of the values of, NHS organizations, and and I've seen it in, I guess, a few different organizations. But 10 years ago, 15 years ago, I wouldn't have seen the word kindness as one of the values of an organization. Are you seeing a shift toward or I suppose from away from the industrial paradigm, traditional values to a more modern person centered values in in organization?

Kate Jones [00:13:28]:
If I'm really honest, I find it quite a hard question to answer because it's it's a it's a question that I ask myself all the time in terms of, you know, how how much of a difference am I making? To what extent are those of us that are banging this drum kind of still in a minority? And also because I mean, obviously, I'm surrounded by my client organizations, and I'm also surrounded by other consultants and coaches who are working in a similar space. And there's certainly I mean, building on the point that I made about PA now writing as a as a as a big global consulting company, now producing thought leadership, which talks about kindness as an essential leadership attribute, equally, you have people like McKinsey who are writing a lot about the importance of well-being, which, again, you know, back in the day, it was kind of unthinkable to me that McKinsey would be writing stuff about the importance of well-being. So there's definitely there's definitely a lot more I'm gonna say, rhetoric about it. There's definitely it's definitely a lot more commonly found, I think, in literature around leadership development and organizational culture. And therefore, it's easier to have those kinds of conversations with client organizations, I think, and even to use some of that language. And at the same time and and going back to my deeply human language, which as I said, I've I've really only been using for the last year, year and a half. You know, I have found there's been such an amazing response in terms of people resonating a lot with that language. And, hence, I've set up this community called the Deep Human Culture Club, which is we've got which I'd set up at the beginning of this year and which is essential.

Kate Jones [00:15:12]:
There's about 60 people who've joined so far who are in all kinds of different organizations in different geographies around the world who all kind of resonate with this idea of deeply human leadership and deeply human cultures, organizational cultures. There's lots of signs in that respect of a shift in a certain direction because I couldn't have imagined that, you know, like 20 years ago when I first became a management consultant. And at the same time, I still think that there's there's a kind of I don't know if it's a disconnect, but there's still a kinda gap between it's almost like people's hearts' desire for something different on a on, like, on their on a human level. They kinda say, ugh. You know? Yes. I that is what I would love for myself, for my children, for my team. And yet at the same, there's a bit of a gap between that and then a sort of a mindset still that is stuck in a in a belief system that says, but this is just the world of work. This is just the work this is just the way it is.

Kate Jones [00:16:12]:
So is it is it not still kind of cloud cuckoo land to imagine that we could run our organizations in a different way? But, I mean, essentially, that is I mean, however cloud cuckoo land it might feel like, I feel like I'm on a mission to change the the world of work. It's like, I do not accept that the only way to run our organizations is the way that we run them currently, whether they're corporate organizations, for profit organizations, or purpose beyond profit organizations. What I see is the vast majority running on this paradigm of what I call the hamster wheel paradigm, which is where people are just running, running, running, running, frantically spinning, utterly exhausted, no time to actually think properly, no time to check whether they're doing the right things or in the best way, no time to connect with themselves or each other, sometimes no time even to have something to eat at lunchtime or go to the toilet. I mean and I'm not exaggerating. No. You're not. And it's not it's not only that it doesn't make sense from a human being point of view given that we I read somewhere that we spend something like, on average, 85000 hours in our lives at work. So it's like, well, you know, we might as well try to make that kind of vaguely enjoyable and not something that's detrimental to our health and well-being.

Kate Jones [00:17:26]:
But also from a performance point of view, you know, I'm as big an advocate as anybody of organizations having the impact that they wanna have and performing to the highest level possible. And the hamster wheel paradigm is short termist, is shortsighted. Yeah. It just doesn't doesn't make any sense. So, yeah, it's a very long answer to your question, but I think there there are some signs that it's shifting, but still I think there's a there's a a belief system that is very entrenched that says, well, that is just the way the world of work is, and how are we ever gonna change it?

Nia Thomas [00:18:00]:
Yeah. I think there is a clear desire. There's an aspiration, and there's the rhetoric of of where we want to go to. But I don't think we've worked out how we're gonna do it yet. And what we also don't know is how are we gonna put the closed sign up on the door long enough for us to work out how we are gonna do that and to make that change. So we are we are doing this peculiar thing where we are talking and wanting, but we are still on that hamster wheel, and we don't know how to get off long enough to make a change. So it'll be interesting having these kind of conversations in 10, 15 years whether we have started to move more towards that humanism and we are now starting to see more ideas of of how we actually put this into practice.

Kate Jones [00:18:46]:
Yeah. I agree. And I think it's the the biggest challenge, I think, for people who do the sort of work that that we do is to find new and creative ways of engaging organizations of many different kinds in the conversation. And sometimes it is about changing the language that you use. So sometimes I don't talk about deeply human leadership. Sometimes I talk about high performance leadership or high performance cultures. So it feels as though sometimes you kind of have to be a bit of a Trojan horse who kind of on the outside looks as though, you know, I have a kind of style that actually goes down quite well with the sort of classic corporates. I mean, I do a lot of work, for example, in with a with a with a big engineering company.

Kate Jones [00:19:29]:
Engineers the number of engineers over the years who said, oh, engineers don't do feelings. I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Actually, of course, you do because you're a human being. But Yeah. But in in that in that environment, I I will kind of pitch myself on the work that I do in a in a in potentially quite a different way, but I'm still on the inside. I'm, like, sowing seeds of helping people create environments where people can actually be human beings rather than be treated and feel like and sometimes behave like machines or robots.

Nia Thomas [00:20:03]:
One of the ways you help people to understand themselves is through your Deeply Human quiz. And I I I love assessment tools that I think they they always bring something and add something to your self awareness. Tell us about your quiz.

Kate Jones [00:20:19]:
Okay. So I actually have 2 quizzes, but one one the one that you're talking about is the one that is I think it's how deeply human are you, essentially. So it's it's very short. I don't know how long it took you, but it usually takes about between 5 10 minutes maybe. You could

Nia Thomas [00:20:34]:
say about 10 or 8 minutes. Yeah.

Kate Jones [00:20:35]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think there's about 20 questions in it, about 4 different kind of sections, questions that are designed to help the respondent, the person completing the quiz, to ascertain some people complete it looking through the lens of themselves and their own leadership. Some people complete it through the lens of their organization, so kind of taking a view of the characteristics of their organizational culture. But the aim is to get people thinking really about what a deeply human mindset or leadership style or culture might look like. And then they get they get it's all free. There's no there's no charge for it. And you get a a report with the kind of results and then some sort of pointers as to, yeah, where where you might focus, what you might focus on if you wanted to kind of improve your score.

Kate Jones [00:21:22]:
And you actually got a very high score, did you not?

Nia Thomas [00:21:24]:
I did. I got 86, and and I don't think that good or but I was thinking because of the work that I do in the area that I'm interested in, I felt like I should have a higher score. So I think I'm gonna go back to your your recommendations that you share afterwards. Yeah. And I wanna look at that because I want to be improved in that area. So, you know, maybe in 6 months' time I can come back and do it and get 96 next time. But I think it was it was quite enlightening for me as somebody who who thought that they were operating in a way that was deeply human, again maybe coming back to what we were talking about earlier, talk about it, understand it, talk about the the academic side, but maybe in putting it into practice, you go back to what you know. So I thought it was very interesting and very helpful for me.

Kate Jones [00:22:14]:
Well, that's good to hear, but, I mean, the the the coach in me wants to say, Nia, do you really think that 86% is not a high score? It's my first kind of comment, but 86% is a high score. And, I mean, it's quite interesting actually because I think usually, going back to this question about how do we engage the people that have most work to do in these processes. So of the people that complete the quiz, there is a obviously, there's there's a range, but I would say there are probably more people who complete it that get it, who gets the value, get what deeply human leadership is, who who understand who make that connection between well-being and performance, who kind of understand the connection between leadership and culture and performance, you know, all all of those things. And so it's not because there are some people, I would say, I've seen scores kind of as low as, I don't know, between 30 40%. There are some people that have completed it that I know. I know the individuals who've completed it. And I think, really? You really? You've got going back to that self awareness point. Right? You know, the the the the answers that you put in are are only a reflection of the way in which you view yourself.

Kate Jones [00:23:24]:
And therefore, it's definitely the case that there's I can think of a couple of people off the top of my head. I'm like, I definitely wouldn't score you as high as high as that. So so it's not it's not it's not intended to be a scientific academic, kind of exhaustive survey, but it does, I think, get people thinking. And some of the questions that are in there, I think I find, I always find the answers quite interesting. I think there's one about the extent to which the purpose, because there's a section on purpose, the extent to which you think that the purpose on the outside of the organization is reflected on the inside because that's, you know, my whole thing about the definition of a deeply human organization is one that is a force for good on the outside in terms of the actual work that it does and the impact that that has on the world, but also the extent to which it's a force for good on the inside in terms of the environment that it creates and the the degree to which people feel comfortable and motivated and able to thrive. And often, that's one of the questions where people often say there's a bit there's a disconnect. And another one is, I think one of the questions is to what extent do you really believe if you're really honest, to what extent do you think that your leadership is as much of a force for good as you would like it to be or, you know, some something of the words to that effect? And, again, I mean, that's obviously a kind of self assessment, but a lot of people will say I think there's one answer is I I know I could do better or I know there's more work for me to do here. But but, yeah, I mean, I'd really encourage people to to take it because it just it just sort of gets you into get dips your toe in the water really of of the deeply human leadership and culture stuff.

Nia Thomas [00:25:04]:
And listeners, watchers, I would definitely recommend share this quiz with people who don't usually fill out these kind of quizzes.

Kate Jones [00:25:13]:
Oh, yeah. Because I

Nia Thomas [00:25:14]:
think as Kate was saying, we we are often preaching to the choir because you come to these podcasts, to these quizzes, because you are already interested in the subject. When we are talking about human leadership, whether we're talking about self aware leadership, it's often the people who are not in this space who need to hear about it, who need to learn about it, and need to develop their own skills in this area. So share. Share. Share.

Kate Jones [00:25:39]:
Oh, totally. That would be amazing. Absolutely. Get get it in front of the people who you're like, really? I really want him or her to kind of think about this. Like, just yeah. See if you can, bring it to those people. That would be fantastic. Yes.

Nia Thomas [00:25:53]:
That's today's call to action. Yeah. You are a graduate of the Bert Hellinger Institute, and I'm not sure whether I've pronounced that properly, in the Netherlands, and you are tray trained in systems thinking. How does systems thinking help you when you're working with organizations and really helping them to become more human?

Kate Jones [00:26:13]:
Yeah. That's a great question. So the Bert Hellinger, for those that don't know, was the sort of original founder of family systems thinking and constellations, which I'm not gonna attempt to explain in any detail, but one of the kind of tenets of, constellations and systems thinking is that patterns of behavior can be passed down across generations within families. But also the work is increasingly sort of entered into the world of of organizations. And so it looks into the history of an organization, traumatic events in the lifetime of an organization. There are certain sort of principles of healthy systems as defined by systems thinkers that you can use to sort of inform your understanding of of how healthy or not an organizational system or a family system, I don't work with families, but or a team. I mean, you know, a team is obviously an example of a system, how healthy or unhealthy they are. And I don't know what the statistics are of how many healthy family systems there are in the world, but I would imagine that the statistics are quite low.

Kate Jones [00:27:19]:
Maybe I'm talking from my own experience. I don't know. But equally, there's lots of reasons why organizational systems can be can struggle, essentially. And what's interesting about it, apart from anything else, is that individuals operating in those systems, sometimes it's as though the system that systems have a a life of their own, and so there will be patterns of behavior that will unfold almost regardless of which individual or individuals are holding those positions. So, I mean, obviously, kind of systems thinking is a is a is a huge area. But I think in simple terms, what it does, it helps us understand the multifaceted nature of individuals, teams, and organizations and how they are impacted by all by the the the variety of different systems of which they're a part. So if you were to draw, a little picture of you as an individual and think about all the all the systems in which you work, family system, a school system, an educational system, a a community system, a professional system in terms of your maybe educational background, your organizational system, your team. I mean, there'd be, you know, tens and twenties and thirties and forties of systems.

Kate Jones [00:28:39]:
So I think what it does is, in some ways, systems thinking is a deeply human lens of looking at why people behave in the way that they do and and the ways in which we are impacted by the systems in which we are operating and just how complex that is given how many overlapping systems are constantly the interconnectedness of everything, really. There's John Whittington is a very well known organizational systems, person based, I think, still in London and does a lot of work in constellations. And I I did some training with him as well, and he used to he always talked about the peacock tail. And I use this actually quite a lot when I'm working with teams in particular, is getting people to imagine the sort of peacock tail of systems of which they are or have been a part kind of fanning out behind them like a peacock tail. Ah, okay. And it just gives people a kind of sense of the the complexity of context in which they operate and the ways in which it affects them. So, yeah, I think it provides just an additional level of context and understanding when working with individuals, teams, and organizations because, of course, none of us are operating in isolation from anything or anybody much as some of us might like to. We just don't.

Kate Jones [00:30:00]:
You know, there is a kind of in a a web of connectedness that links all of us in some way, shape, or form.

Nia Thomas [00:30:07]:
That's a a wonderful description of a of a peacock tail because

Kate Jones [00:30:10]:
we

Nia Thomas [00:30:10]:
often talk about the baggage that we bring, don't we? And the the heaviness and the it pulls you down and it pulls you back. But, actually, for many of us, it just colors our experience. It teaches us things, and it it's allowed us to grow and and to be where we are. So I quite like the idea of a peacock tail peacock tail. I think it's far more positive than what the way that we usually talk about it.

Kate Jones [00:30:36]:
Yeah. But, of course, I mean, as you say, we're often not necessarily aware of it, or there'll be parts of our, let's call it the peak cocktail, that we are much more aware of than than other parts of the peak cocktail. So, you know, another way in which the systems a systems approach can be helpful is enabling people to increase their self awareness, really, about the ways in which their peacock tail, that sort of myriad of contacts and systems or worlds, mini worlds in which they operate, are causing them to behave in the way that they behave. And then that that enables them to have more choice about the extent to which they're gonna make the same decision again, whether they're gonna behave in the same way again, or whether they're gonna whether they're they're gonna make a different choice.

Nia Thomas [00:31:22]:
Very interesting. And we could probably had a a very long conversation about that, let alone all the leadership things we've been talking about. For people in midlife who are seeking new direction, how do you help people to navigate the transition and find fulfillment in that new chapter?

Kate Jones [00:31:41]:
Yeah. So this is going into the sort of other bit of my work. So I I reckon probably about 80% of of of my work is organizationally and leadership focused, so all about the kind of deeply human leadership stuff where I'm mainly you know, it might be leadership strategy or it might be helping a team improve the way in which it works together, or it might be working with a cohort and designing a leadership development program for a cohort of leaders or working with individual leaders in 1 to 1 executive coaching programs. But the other bit is helping people in, I say midlife. I mean, I'm in my mid fifties. So, I mean, I don't know. I don't I don't what would you say midlife? I sort of say between 3555, but the older I get, the more I'm stretching the Absolutely. The midlife bracket.

Kate Jones [00:32:30]:
But obviously, it's that kind of classic time where people's sense of identity and people's sense of what they what's important to them starts to shift. Sometimes because there's a major life event, a bereavement or a loss of a breakdown of a marriage or some kind of ill health or redundancy or something of that kind. But sometimes it's just, it just happens. You know, there's the kind of, as Joseph Campbell would put it, there's the call to adventure, quote unquote. There's that sort of whisper in your ear that says to you, is is this it? Like, is there not more to life than this? And I think it actually, I was talking about it. I was just drafting it one of my newsletters today, and I was mentioning it was a book by James Hollis, which is about basically that period of midlife and kind of finding meaning in the second half of life. And, you know, he talks about the fact that phase 1 of our adult life is usually about sort of proving ourselves in some way, shape, or form, being a success, whatever that might mean. And then the second half of life is usually about, finding meaning.

Kate Jones [00:33:34]:
So typically actually, it's interestingly a lot of the people that come to me in this in this bit of my work, which is largely around individual, let's call it life coaching, if you like, a lot of the a lot of those people are people who are wanting to get off the hamster wheel that I that I work with in the in the leadership bit. So people who are sick and tired of the rat race or the corporate world, who are exhausted, who want to spend more time with their families, who want to who want their work to have more meaning than making whatever kind of money they're making or the next promotion. And I was just like, I want I want something more than this. Thank you very much. And some people know what it is that they want. So for example, I was working not too long ago with somebody who was in professional services and very successful, had a great kind of, you know, great potential for further promotion, but they they were dissatisfied. And, actually, what was really important for them was that their the creative parts of themselves had more of a place at the table in their day to day life. So some people come with a with a kind of clear kinda longing or dream, if you like, and the question is, oh, is that possible? How can I get there? What do I do? Can you help hold me to account for actually doing something about this rather than just ignoring it and pretending that it's not there? Some people come just at the stage of knowing, having that kind of sense of dissatisfaction and that sense of there has to be more to life than this.

Kate Jones [00:35:07]:
I'm really miserable, but I have no idea what it is that I want, and I feel completely stuck. And often they've been stuck in that place for a really long time. And actually so in terms of the quiz, I I actually have a a second quiz, which is about how ready are you for a new beginning, which again, kind of same idea. It's it's it's short and doesn't take very long. And, obviously, you get set your results and stuff, but that is designed to kind of get people thinking about, you know, is this just a bit of a bad day or is this symptomatic of something more fundamental that needs to change, and what is it that's holding me back? So the questions in there about about self confidence versus self doubt, there's questions in there about your appetite for risk, there's questions in there about the degree to which you're you consider yourself to be a free agent who can sort of make whatever decisions that that they want no matter what the, impact is versus somebody who has responsibilities and feels as though those that are dependent on them are gonna be at risk if they make certain choices. So yeah. And I love I love that part of my work. It's it's very different.

Kate Jones [00:36:11]:
But I think one of the things that makes it so enjoyable is that usually those people who want that kind of coaching really, really want it. You know? They're paying themselves. They've got a lot of skin in the game. And, yeah, it's definitely very deeply human work, I think.

Nia Thomas [00:36:31]:
And very connected to your other part, particularly when you get to late forties like me and and you're wondering what next, what's the next big adventure. So I will go back to your website and do the other quiz as well, and I'll make sure that the links are in the show notes too.

Kate Jones [00:36:45]:
Thank you.

Nia Thomas [00:36:46]:
Thank you. Before we finish, so I'm I've been developing this idea over the last couple of months and I recently wrote an article on anybody who's heard me speak I'm a little bit obsessed with the Substack right now so I've written an article on Substack about hyperhumanism and ultra digitalism and I've got this vision that we're we're on this seesaw, and as we move towards ultra digitalism, we want to balance it with hyperhumanism. And the more we go in one direction, we're going to want to and need to balance it with the other side of the seesaw. So so what are your thoughts on on this humanism in the workplace as we become more digitally reliant?

Kate Jones [00:37:30]:
Well, the have you written the article, by the way? Because I'd love to see it.

Nia Thomas [00:37:33]:
I have. It's out. It's in the world.

Kate Jones [00:37:35]:
Oh, great. I have to track it down. Well, the first thing I would say is that I think that the increase in all things digital, AI, etcetera, is only adds fuel to the fire of the necessity of preserving and building on our most precious resource, in my view, which is our humanity.

Nia Thomas [00:37:56]:
Yeah. I agree.

Kate Jones [00:37:58]:
In some ways, I think that it does only add to the imperative to do that rather than the opposite. And, also, I mean, I'm by no means an AI expert. Goodness gracious me. But what I would say is that one thing that a robot will never be is a human being. So the bits of ourselves that I think which I am, you know, most interested in, which is which I are all baked into this sort of notion of of of deep humanity, are the bits I think that AI is least likely to be able to reach or replicate. So in some ways, I am not, overly well, I'm not as con I'm sorry. I am concerned about it, but I'm not as concerned about it as as I think other people might be for that reason. But equally, I was at a conference recently where somebody was talking specifically about AI, and he was talking about, apparently, there's a a very famous study that was done of a community in Austria some decades ago where the whole community was made they lost their jobs.

Kate Jones [00:39:09]:
I think it was in some industrial town. And the impact of unemployment on that community and the link with AI is that, obviously, AI is is already kind of taking over, making obsolete certain jobs that were done by human beings before and the profound impact that that might have, you know, at a kind of large scale. It's one of the fundamental things that I think we have as human beings is the need to feel useful, the need to the need to feel as though there's a reason for us to get out of bed in the morning. Yeah. But, yeah, that sort of existential what's the point of being here, but having a reason to get out of bed in the morning kinda helps you just kinda get through the day even if on a sort of deep philosophical level, you might not necessarily feel hugely kind of connected to a sense of purpose. So I think there are and, also, AI is a is a massive threat to that, I think. But in terms but I I feel like that's always my phrase. Our deepest humanity is our most precious resource in terms of how we how we live, how we lead, and how we work.

Kate Jones [00:40:15]:
So let's do what we can to look after it.

Nia Thomas [00:40:20]:
Absolutely. Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me, Kate. I've really had a a great conversation, and, I I've got some things that I need to go back and check on. I've got an action plan that I can work on, and I've got another quiz that I can go and learn more about myself from as well. So that's really wonderful. Kate, thank you so much for joining me. It's been brilliant.

Kate Jones [00:40:39]:
Thanks so much, Nia. Thanks for having me.

Francesca [00:40:43]:
The knowing self, knowing others podcast has a new feature. You can now send a text message directly to the show. Check out the show notes in your favorite podcast player, and in the top left of the notes, you'll see a link to text the show. Click on it to be taken to your messaging app and send a text directly to Nia and this week's guest. Join the community and be a part of our learning journey.

Nia Thomas [00:41:07]:
Thank you for joining me on today's show where we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. If you want to make sure that you keep in touch with what's going on in the world of self aware leadership, head over to my website and sign up to my newsletter. Looking forward to having you on my learning journey.