Nia: Today, we're joined by the wonderful Sofia Ponte. With over 14 years of international experience, Sophia is passionate about making a tangible difference in the world.

Her diverse skill sets, boundless energy and infectious enthusiasm drive her to create positive change across various fields. Sofia excels in best practices, cultural transformations, program management, Quality control, customer experience, and strategic implementation. She's a digital solutions enthusiast, streamlining processes and enhancing efficiency to maximize impact.

So join us as we dive into Sofia's journey and discover how her expertise and passion can really [00:01:00] inspire us to tackle crucial social issues and create a lasting change. Sophia, it's wonderful to have you here. 

Sofia: Thank you, Nia, for having me here as well. Uh, it's always great to have a good conversation.

So thank you. 

Nia: Most definitely. And for listeners and watchers, Sophia and I came across each other on Substack and Substack is a new passion of mine. And if you're interested in reading and writing, then head over to Substack. So Sophia, tell us about your 14 year journey and how you found yourself.

battling burnout a few years ago. 

Sofia: All right. 14 years. It's a long time. So we'll try to go straight, um, on a general summary of it. I actually started, uh, as a hardware engineer because I started electronics. I did the bachelor's and the master's. I had the dream at the time that I wanted to work in electronics in a medical field.

Okay. But it [00:02:00] happened for me to start at Nokia in telecommunications. And after two years, I realized that stuck in the lab, testing something that I was not aware of what was happening was not the life that I wanted. So I did my first reflection of life. Where should, what should I do? What are my skills?

And I will, at the time I realized that I was good at planning and at back in the university, I, I was always the person talking to the teachers to negotiate the dates of the exams and the tests. So, okay, let's try to find something in that matter. And at a time Nokia was selling the business unit, uh, to a private investment and.

With that change came an opportunity, uh, to join quality team, the R& D quality team, where I started first, uh, doing some metrics and helping the local team here in Portugal to, to track the quality requirements of a, of a project that you have to deliver in software and in [00:03:00] hardware. Uh, but that experience, uh, enlightened me so much that I.

Uh, my, my, my hunger for learning more about management and project management grow and I realized after one year of growing so much and became program quality manager actually at the time. I realized, okay, this is definitely something that I like to do. This is one of my strong skills. So I decided to invest on a, on a master's.

I did a master's on program project management. Then I did a PMP. In the meantime, I was hired for a consulted company to be a project manager internationally. So I traveled a little bit on around the world. I lived in New Zealand. Then I went to Peru. Then Chile, then I went to, um, to China as well, as a project manager in the telecommunications field.

After two years of that life, I've realized that I want to be back in my, in my house with my [00:04:00] friends and establish a bit because traveling so much, you, you can leave the projects, but then everything, the rest stays behind. Right. And that's the time that I start feeling a lot of tiredness. So I was very tired.

Also, to give some context at this time, I was only, I only had the awareness of three areas of life, like family, social and work. professional life. And on the family side, things were a bit rushed. The relationships, particularly with my brother, were not very good. So that pillar was a little bit shaky. The the social and friends life was also a bit shaky because after two years traveling, you don't get actually that that relationships that he used to be when you live in the places, right?

And, uh, in from work, I was working so hard and feeling also so exhausted. Uh, and the company that I was working at the time was not good with [00:05:00] me. Let's put in these words, it got to a point that Someone was asking me, hello, Sophia. And I just wanted to cry. And I was feeling really exhausted. I'm so happy person and active person that I got to a point that I just wanted to stay home in my couch, sleeping without.

Without seeing the sun or if it was raining. So it was the first symptoms and I got to a point that, uh, the company at the time did not want to talk to me and the HR person just Sophia, just go to the medical center and you need to relax and what it was what I did. So I went to a medical station here in, in Portugal.

And when I reached there, I just started to cry and I could not stop crying, just saying my life needs to stop, my life needs to stop. So it was really the point, okay, um, medical leave, [00:06:00] antidepressants, let's start working. And that was when I was diagnosed with a, with a burnout in 2019. Actually, it was the same year that it was actually, uh, a condition recognized by the, uh, World Organization of health.

Um, but I was also lucky in this period because with that medical leave, another opportunity came. So professionally, I started, uh, I had a, a different path to go. So I was able to leave that, uh, environment that I was. And with that transition, I moved to, uh, OutSystems, uh, to develop a, a, a department, a quality department from, from scratch in professional services after one.

Then came COVID and COVID times, you know, we stay all at home and with that, uh, after the COVID times, the company did a layoff. In the meantime, I started an MBA because I wanted to grow more professionally. So I [00:07:00] decided to be a full time student. So it was good. The layoff timing decision, I was able to rest a bit while I was studying.

And after that, I stayed one year. One year without doing anything, just reflecting and also trying to address the burnout because I'm still addressing the burnout root causes. Um, and, uh, I started at Nokia as a team manager and leader. So I'm helping to set up this team in Lisbon, in Portugal.

And here I am 14 years of, of experience, 

Nia: . It, it seems like you've had a real voyage of discovery, um, and along that period. And I think for anybody who's had challenges, you know, In the world of work, I think that it comes as almost a shock to you when you realize that actually your, your work, maybe your lifestyle, your, the fact that you are so conscientious in your work is actually making you ill.

Sofia: [00:08:00] It's, it's sad, but it's how we also live in this society, right? It's I think you're right. the society was built to, to overcome periods of at least from my parents age, right? They were, they needed to fought to have conditions of living to earn the money. And this kind of way of living is somehow built in our society and society evolves.

And I think we are in a generation time that, the society did not, evolved the systems and, uh, and the messages to, to the, people in the same, way, , that, , we have evolved has people, right? Yeah, I think 

Nia: you're right. The two different messages that are coming about our health and wellbeing, but the organizational structures haven't caught up.

Sofia: Yes. 

Nia: Burnout means changing how you as an individual, you think, how you behave and how you care for yourself. What things do [00:09:00] organisations need to do to prevent burnout? Because I think we, we have a better understanding now of self care. How do we look after ourselves in terms of resting, um, and meditation, or whether we're runners or whether we take care of ourselves by eating differently.

But that's all well and good good. When we're talking about an individual, what about the organization? Because we can do so much, but then we put ourselves back into organizations. And if they haven't thought about burnout, then there's potential that we're just going back into the same problem. 

Sofia: So, I, I think it's 50 50, or half and half.

It's part of the individual responsibility, but for that the individual itself needs guidance and needs references. I speak for myself. I did not have references on work and life balance. I did not have references to have, or to consider different areas of my life besides the work, family, and friends, or social, [00:10:00] right?

That's the part that I believe that the companies can step in. And I'm already doing this with my team, my current team, which is very young team, a very young in age team, they, uh, the majority just left university and it's incredible how they are not prepared for life. And this is the one the way that I'm doing with them.

So the one on ones, all the team meetings that I have on a journal topics each month, I try to create awareness on, we need to be active, we need to be able to recognize when we need to rest, when we need to be working, we need to be accountable also to understand how life actually works.

But some of them in particular come from very, um, not, uh, educated family. So they are the first one giving the steps within the family. So giving awareness on how to [00:11:00] manage financially their, their, uh, their income sources and how they should save even this small thing. So this is how you can bring awareness about.

Life to the team members, and that's where I think the companies or the organizations can really step in. So, yes, we are not their parents. Uh, but the thing is, our generation of the generation that I see myself in, and this younger generations, they are not aware of. Any life areas or any, how they should be addressing, prepare themselves for life.

The most, the most youngest ones. Now we have this norm, a European norm that wants to introduce on a first class, the financial education for the kids, they will be prepared when they grew up, but the current generation is not. So maybe has an organization. If I want my employees to be happy and have, uh, [00:12:00] productivity and motivation to work for me.

Let me help them to understand or to give them awareness. What is life about? Right? So we need to be active because by being active, you don't need to lift 100 kilos weight, right? But just by walking, you already contributed to relax your body, to build muscle. So you can be, so you can relax better and be more productive on the next day.

Right? So it's, I think this, this is where , organizations can start stepping in, in their employees within the company, right? It's not only about career path, but also career path should, should, uh, be more complete. Not only what's your next step. I want to be a project manager. Okay. Then you need to do this, this, this.

Okay. But what about the rest? of the life. So I think I did not have these references. I learned by having the burnout, right? And I just started looking for the references after that episode. [00:13:00] But if I had a manager or something older that could highlight with me, Sophia, , you're addressing this too serious.

Maybe you should consider if I had that kind of Uh, guidelines at the time, maybe, uh, I would not lead to a burnout. 

Nia: Interesting thoughts there, because I guess my question was around organizations, but I think we've expanded it to, there is a part to play in. Wider education, and you mentioned universities and colleges, and we, we teach the academic part, but are we preparing young people to step into the world of work with all of the other things that come, not just the to do list, because there's a, how do you interact with people?

How do you, how do you function if you don't live at home anymore, if you have to move to a different country, to a different city to be able to, to carry out your work? It's about all of those other things. Um, and it's interesting isn't it, businesses often [00:14:00] aren't having conversations with university. So maybe there is something there about preparedness for our young people moving into the world of work.

Sofia: Yes, maybe they can start having this kind of collaborations and because in the end, we are all responsible to help each other, right? Between people, between organizations, between organizations, universities, whatever, right? Could be one of the requirements for collaborations, yes. 

Nia: Indeed. You say that the essence of your leadership is grounded in emotional intelligence, open communication and continuous learning.

Tell us a little bit about those three things and how did you, how did you arrive at those three things? 

Sofia: So, uh, I, all of my lessons from now on, I will always refer to burnout, right? So, uh, so yes, uh, one of the things that I realized was, yes, I was good at doing stuff, but not managing my emotions and, or [00:15:00] understanding other's emotions.

So emotional intelligence is where it comes in, right? And for that to happen, you need to create a safe environment and to create a safe environment, you need to have open communication. You need to be fearless all the time. Speaking for whatever you need to talk about, right? Talk about your feelings, talk about your struggles or even your wins, right?

Sometimes we are even a little bit shy talking about our wins because it can intimidate other people. Um, and All of that, you are only able to do that if you practice and if you learn how to, I learned, at least I looked for, uh, how to provide feedback, how to receive feedback, how can I, that with the burnout I've learned about the will of emotions.

Okay. Maybe in this world of emotions, I can understand better what exactly I am feeling because I did not grow up talking about my emotions. emotional side, unfortunately. Um, so, so yes, and for that you need to keep [00:16:00] reading. There's always something new, uh, to be shared or learned in a different perspective.

Um, so yeah. For me, these all three things are combined. Um, so you can actually be a people person, you can actually address the team that you're leading, right? In my particular case, since I'm leading teams, uh, I need in my approach is very focused on each individual. So I take specific time to learn about them.

And for that, and there are cases that many of them don't know how to talk. So, okay, let's try some exercises. And so you can learn the practice, the exercises, you need to learn those exercises, right? So it's all connected in the end. 

Nia: I wanted to reflect on what you said right at the very beginning there was that Everything that you think about, consider and the way you live now comes from that point of burnout.

And in 2004, I got really [00:17:00] sick and I was off work for about five months and nobody could really tell me what was wrong. I didn't have a broken bone. I didn't need surgery, but I was just unwell. And it, as you said, 2019 was when the World Health Organization recognized burnout. It was a long time before that.

The same as how you referred to that. From that point, it seemed that a light had been shone on Everything that I did, the way I lived, the way I ate, the way I thought, and the life I lived after 2004 was lived. On that basis that there was a huge learning in 2004, and that felt like this huge line in the sand and everything after 2004 was generated because of that situation and that ill health that I had suffered.

So I absolutely recognize that and that really made me reflect on how I'd lived in 2004. Self awareness is often viewed as being pretty much the same as emotional intelligence, but how do you view self [00:18:00] awareness and emotional intelligence? Are they the same? Are they different? Are they connected? What are your thoughts?

Sofia: There are, in my view, there are connected. Uh, so you can have or practice emotional intelligence, you need to be aware of your own emotions and create the empathy to understand the other's emotions. So you can actually practice emotional intelligence, right? So self awareness. Okay. I recognize that I behave this way.

When a specific person says something that triggers something inside of me. Okay. The awareness is here. What can I do? about it, right? And that comes to emotion and intelligence part, right? So I am mad because that person says something that triggers on that, that point that I gets me mad.

So, okay, in this case, I already know that I will stop and breathe. Maybe I'll take a walk outside of the building and come back to the office so I [00:19:00] can, okay, I know this already. I acknowledge this and this is how I'm dealing with this. So this, for me, it's the difference between the self awareness and , emotional intelligence.

Nia: I really like that description. I think in my mind, I've always seen, um, self awareness and emotional intelligence as a Venn diagram. And there, there is a point where they overlap in the middle, but, but I wonder if actually the way you describe it, they are different layers and you move from being aware of your emotion.

You have an emotion, then you step into your awareness. I wonder if actually they're different layers or you've got me thinking about it in a completely different way. And I really like that. As I mentioned earlier, our paths have crossed on Substack and your excellent newsletter which is called Finding Authenticity with Sophia Ponte.

And if you want to head over, listeners and watchers, I really do recommend you do that. What does Finding Authenticity mean to you? 

Sofia: So, for me, it's all the journey I've [00:20:00] been through at this moment, and, uh, it's really getting to know myself, um, it was one of the realizations that I had, I did not know exactly, uh, myself, uh, understanding how I can address specific.

topics or thoughts and finding authenticity. It's the journey, right? It's not an end goal because you will be learning about yourself. all your life, right? Today, I'm this way, I'm having now this experience with this podcast, maybe something will shift on me tomorrow and will address me to a different, uh, parts of way of thinking, right?

So it's how you can know yourself. And then apply what you know about yourself in life, because I'm also trying to have this transition in life in everything. And if you want, I can mention this. One of the things that I did when I, uh, to [00:21:00] start. So we start thinking differently when we have the burnout, right?

And one of the things that I did was, okay, now. I've learned about these all new areas of life that I was not aware. Now I included this on my thoughts and plannings and reflections in life. So I've decided to change everything. And when I mean everything, it's everything. So I started with my diet and with my intention to, to exercise, then friends.

So in step by step, I'm also now on the stage that I also want to give a step on my career as well. Uh, change a little bit, I'm still trying to understand what I will do, uh, or how I can do because in the end in, in my bottom of heart, I think I know what I want to do, but I still need to build the self confidence and the trust in myself to actually give those steps because they pound at the first sight a little bit scary.

And all of that, it's what you need to [00:22:00] find your own authenticity, right? So it's really coming up. Coming out and being able to recognize self awareness what you're doing and what who you are so you can come and be authentic in this world because life is just one. I know it's cliche but it's really only one and we need to be able to not be afraid to be ourselves.

Nia: Yeah, definitely. And, uh, I absolutely agree that, that it's a journey, which is, uh, what I say about self awareness. Self awareness is, uh, is an ongoing journey. I was reading one of your articles and you used the phrase light culture as opposed to heavy culture. And, and I absolutely agree with that.

understood what you meant in those two phrases. It didn't feel like it needed a descriptor. How do we shift organizations from heavy to light? 

Sofia: Ah, that is a very tricky question because you might be able to [00:23:00] do it on a short term on small teams. But on big organizations, it might take ages to, to actually do this transition, right?

Because I have a culture, what I call to have a culture is the traditional, yeah, erical, where you need to say yes, yes, boss, or yes, ma'am, or that kind of answers, right, or respect. It's not that you don't have respect when it's in a light, because you must have respect. But the difference for me is When, on a light environment, we are all people, we all have one head, two arms, uh, brains, we all think, so we are all equal as people or as one individuals, but we use heads, right?

So I might be a program manager, that guy is the CEO. And I will talk to him with the hat on, but in the end, I'm talking to individual. So I don't need to be [00:24:00] afraid to be clear and open with the CEO, just because he's the CEO. And in a heavy environment or in a heavy culture environment, you, I'm going to talk to the CEO.

I'm so afraid. Right? So this is, this is, this is what I, I believe that might be a shift that takes time. In a small team, you can start doing it, implementing it, but for bigger organizations might be more complicated to do it because you have people that are working there for 20 or 30 years already. So they have the old mindset and not the new generation mindset where they want to be okay in working lightly.

Because I was talking this about another day with a, with a friend, um, Working easily with others is underrated. 

Nia: Yeah. 

Sofia: Right? So people, think that to, to work with, purpose or intention, you, [00:25:00] you need to work hard and you need to get mad and it has to be so you can almost suffocate yourself, but it doesn't need to be that way.

Why cannot just be relaxed and okay, I know that he's the CEO. He needs to maybe give me answers because he's responsible for a business and I don't need to take them. on a personal level, right? So it's, it's an individual that it's, has a role and I have another role and I'm just, it's a healthy discussion.

So that's what I, I see hate has a light, uh, cultural, uh, environment. 

Nia: What a great description. And I, and it definitely aligns with The industrial era and the new knowledge based area that we're, we're moving into. And maybe there is a heaviness and a different lightness, um, but I think that's, that's a really interesting way of describing that.

As part of that same article, you talk about experiencing joy in company culture. What does experiencing joy [00:26:00] look like, feel like to you? 

Sofia: I think it's just a different way to refer what I just mentioned, because if I'm talking lightly or I have, I'm in a light. Culture environment, I can be relaxed and maybe be authentic.

And I can really enjoy what I'm doing. Because if I'm not enjoying what I'm doing, or if I'm afraid to speak something I'm not enjoying if when I'm afraid, right? Being afraid, it's a survival mechanism. So if you are in a survival mechanism, how can I have joy in a survival mechanism, right?

So survival means that we need to pay attention what's going on because I'm, I'm in danger. So that's the opposite of being happy or trying to enjoy what you do. So, um, for me, it's, it's in the end, the, the heavy cultural organizations are not enjoyable, like the lighter. ones [00:27:00] are because in the lighter ones, you can actually be yourself.

You can read, you can talk, and can have healthy discussion. Okay. And maybe even exchange ideas. Okay. That's not part of my role, but I want to do it. And you can be open about it, right? When you are on a heavy culture, okay, you need to do this. You need to do that. Now you're going to talk to that senior and they even Uh, make it, uh, an emphasis to it.

You're going to talk to the senior person instead of just you're going to talk to the senior person. So it's how you even have put the weight on the words when you're talking about them. 

Nia: Yeah. So heavy aligns with more fear, light aligns with more joy. Absolutely get that. Yeah, I like that. I have an interest in leadership at all levels and not just leadership at the most strategic or the top end of organization.

You wrote an article called Lead at Home on Trips in Life, Not Just the Office. And I'd love if you could [00:28:00] just tell us a little bit more about that. 

Sofia: So in the end we need to be the CEOs of our lives. Doesn't matter if it's at the office or if it's at home or if it's outside. Right? So, it's being authentic in the end.

It's all the newsletter above. Right? So it's all about being authentic. I want, I should be authentic at work. I should be authentic at home. I should be authentic with my friends. I should be authentic while going shopping. If I wanted to just say hi and be nice, because I am that person instead of being afraid of being judged because someone is going to say, Oh, why is she saying hello to the lady or to the, that person?

Right? So in the end, it's just, it's, Take the rules. If I'm going on vacation, I will definitely go on that, on that path being myself and leading everything. Right. So I don't need to just to say yes, because, uh, a package was built for me. Right. I can negotiate. I can lead that. So in the end, it's [00:29:00] just being authentic in all areas of your life.

Nia: Being a CEO of your life. I like that. How do you maintain your self awareness so that you. That you are checking in with yourself, I'm, I'm conscious that you mentioned that there are things that you're moving into now when you're looking maybe to progress in your career. How do you keep yourself in check and you prevent burnout from happening again?

Sofia: So one of the things I have, um, almost mandatory to do, I, when I wake up, I do a small reflection I even have a template on my, actually, I have a whole template on my Notion. Maybe I'll make it available one day for other people. But I do organize my thoughts in the morning, in the evening, during the day, sometimes if I feel anxious, okay, let me sit down with myself and write it down.

Okay, so I am feeling stressed with this meeting. What [00:30:00] is making me stressed? Okay, let me sit down for five minutes and two minutes is enough. And today we have the cell phones we can sometimes I like to write on pen and paper. Now I have a tablet that I can use a pen. It's also great because I can use the colors and the pictures and then I'll do the girly stuff.

Um, but in the end, that's one of my tools. So I really, um, stop and write it down. Um, I try to remember myself that what's the why, why are you feeling this way? You feeling afraid? Okay, but I'm not in danger. Okay, let's so all the wheel of life and the wheel of emotions taking action. Um, And I try to balance things, right?

So, uh, when I see that I'm too tired, I will just, uh, be a, be with myself alone, uh, at home in my couch or just reading or walking my dog, uh, or doing other activities that re energize myself. [00:31:00] So, uh, very clear in my mind. That was one of the exercises I also did. Uh, what does energize me and what does not energize me?

And I have always in hand the list of things that energize me because sometimes it looks like I forget about them. So I have that list. I have that list with myself so I don't forget. Okay. Playing the piano re energizes me. Okay, I'm going to play the piano. Even though it's just for five minutes. Just listen to music and try to play something.

It's already, okay, I'm feeling good again. Um, or painting or whatever. I have a whole list of activities. Um, and besides that, it's having, uh, Physical exercise. So I do CrossFit on a daily basis. Uh, when there's wind, I go kitesurfing. And so I try to do these physical activities because it really brings me, uh, peace, um, rest, and, uh, and if it's something that I'm really mad, I can put all of the [00:32:00] weights.

So, uh, it's just a way also to address the, those, those, uh, Less positive emotions, right? Because what we the majority and I feel I also talk for myself. I did not know how to do it. I was just feeling that anger that less positive emotion. And I just did not know what to do. Right? Because I was, you know, It's not, I never get the, the ideal or the reference that I should put it out of my body.

So also listen to our body. It's very, uh, it's a very important key because our body tells us every single thing. 

Nia: It absolutely does. And you have to be proactive in making sure that you are listening firstly and then acting on that. 

Sofia: But you need to have awareness, right? Because I did not have that awareness until I had the burnout.

Yeah, 

Nia: definitely. So. So just before we go, what are three things that you would recommend to listeners on how to move forward into the future [00:33:00] of work? 

Sofia: Into the future of work. We are living on a. On a specific era of life, right? So we just left, uh, COVID times where we were mandatory or obliged to stay at home.

Then at the same time, the technology is being so fast that we now have AI to help us and that it's making people feel afraid as well. Uh, for me, the future of work will be. Soft skills, soft skills, because with AI and being stuck at home, what I see, and I see this with my team, with the youngest ones, they don't know how to relate.

They don't know how to communicate. They, and I, I strongly believe that we will go to a time, we will revert. how we do meetings, we, we will want to have meetings face to face. We will want to [00:34:00] understand and see each other's on a real life because we will be sick of this. We will be tired of always online meetings.

And, and also because you need critical thinking with AI era, right? So everything that AI is telling us, we need to have critical thinking to do that. And for that, you need to discuss, you need to develop all your thinking skills. And that for me, it's through soft skills and humanize how we talk to each other.

Um, so if I have to recommend three things for the future of work, yes, learn about the potentialities of the AI, because it will be the future of our lives. And but for that, develop your soft skills. It will be a key. It will be key, uh, in the future. And third, get to know yourself so you don't be overwhelmed.

If you're overwhelmed, identify that and breathe. If you're happy, [00:35:00] Identify that and celebrate. So get to know it yourself so you can also understand and create the empathy with the others. And that comes back again to the soft skills, right? So it's all, uh, interconnected. Yeah, most definitely. 

Nia: Sofia, that's absolutely wonderful.

I've, I've really enjoyed our conversation and I've learned a lot and I've certainly, I think I need to go away and reflect and, and think about how I think about the world of work from here. It's been a brilliant conversation. Thank you so much. so much. for joining me, Sofia Ponte. Thank you. Thank 

Sofia: you, Nia, for having me here.

Um, and I hope we can talk again in the future. Definitely. Thank you.