Nia Thomas [00:00:01]:
Hello, and welcome to the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast where we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. I'm your host, Nia Thomas. Join me as I talk to today's guest. Listeners, I'm delighted to be joined today by Lynn Turner. Lynn has an extensive background in the NHS. She worked in the NHS for 39 years, and she started her career as a nurse and moved into leadership and management roles, and all of those roles really have had a people and workforce focus. Lyn, it's lovely to have you here.

Lynn [00:00:36]:
Thank you very much, Nia. It's a pleasure to be here.

Nia Thomas [00:00:39]:
So tell us a little bit about your career. 39 years, you've seen a lot of change in the NHS in that time.

Lynn [00:00:45]:
I certainly have. I think when I probably first started, it was very much command and control was the the overarching philosophy. You know, knowledge is power. You don't share what you know, particularly if you're in a leadership position, and it's quite hierarchical and And not particularly person centered. Sadly, it horrifies me to say that people were known by their bands or their roles Rather than as as people themselves, nothing today. There's still some elements of that within the NHS. There was a focus on strengths and weaknesses as part of leadership development, but in all honesty, it was probably more about trying to Improve on your weaknesses rather than amplifying your strengths. So I'm pleased to say that I think over all those 39 years has been A real shift in terms of some of the philosophy in terms of leadership.

Lynn [00:01:41]:
There's still elements of that, and I think we do tend to return to command and control type leadership behaviors when we're in crisis I'm on when things aren't going well. But I think for me, one of the fundamental influences in my career was when We looked at improvement science and how we can, you know, do changes and make that better, and That then naturally led to a to a focus on more coaching type leadership behaviors, which is always where I'd be more comfortable at.

Nia Thomas [00:02:13]:
Interesting. And my background in the NHS, latterly, was working in a speaker program, and that civility and respect and Incivility and impact of disrespect in the workplace is so significant, and I know that Chris Turner has done Research on theaters and patients' recovery from that and how the impact of individuals and how they care for patients has such An impact on their recovery. So if we think then about self awareness, what does that mean for you in that health care leadership contest. Because as you said, we started with command and control, some interest in strengths and weaknesses, But how has that moved, and where does self awareness fit in that leadership context in the NHS?

Lynn [00:03:04]:
I think now it's it's more about being Collaborative and about that kind of compassionate type of leadership. And I think where that links In terms of strengths is it is for me being self aware is about knowing what your strengths are, but also what What beyond? But I think more fundamentally, it's also about those relationships that you have with the people around you, who you're working with, And also knowing about what their strengths are and how you in a role as leader can help amplify those those strengths and to help them to shine to the best of their ability. I think that's where it's probably changed because it's, You know, previously, it would have been about improving on your weaknesses, but I don't think that brings out the best in people because you're always coming from a negative Approach. So for me, self awareness is about knowing what your own strengths are, but also getting to know the People that you're working with on a on a regular basis is part of a team setting, and and also being able to adapt your style To meet their needs as well and to have that flexibility. I think it's also about, you know, wearing a little bit of your heart on your sleeve And being genuine and authentic, sometimes you you you can't always behave In that same style. So I think for me self awareness is about, actually, I've got to achieve this task and that doesn't really align with how I normally work. So I'm going to be open about that, you know, because some things that we've had to do as leaders aren't the negotiation. They might not sit sit comfortably with you, and I think in those circumstances, it's really important to be clear and open about look.

Lynn [00:04:55]:
I know that I'm normally quite collaborative and quite people focused, but this has happened, and we've really got to focus on this task. I know this might not sit comfortably with you because I think if you don't articulate some of your thoughts and feelings in that, setting, Then your team will be thinking, oh, she's acting a bit strange today. What's going on? And that then starts all kinds of ruminations about what could be going on, whereas I think a little bit of honesty in that space and also shown some vulnerability there because as leaders, we don't always have all the answers, so I think it's really important that we understand the Strengths of the people that were working around and not being afraid to say, look. I need some help with this. This isn't my strong point. I'm in an uncomfortable situation, but this is the task that we have to achieve. So, you know, how can we achieve it together to the best of our abilities?

Nia Thomas [00:05:53]:
I think that conversation about talking about talking about it is very interesting because we're often so very focused on the to do list But that conversation about how we have the conversation is is it's it's not part of the conversation at all. So I think being being mindful of that, being aware of that, and having that conversation when you're all having to behave in a different way than usual, I think that is is very healthy, and it does create that openness in a team. Yeah. So we've talked about self awareness, but What are your thoughts on self awareness and senior leadership posts? And I ask that because for the 1st year of my podcast, I asked all of my guests the question about whether they thought that the most strategic level, leaders had greater self awareness than leaders at other levels in the organization. So So what are your thoughts on self awareness and those senior leadership posts?

Lynn [00:06:49]:
I think it's mixed. I've I've had the pleasure of working with some fantastic leaders who, show great amount of self awareness, But I think at all levels of the organization, you've got the good and the ones who aren't aren't self aware. I think when you get to a senior leadership Chip Rowe. I think the language changes. I think so much at a strategic level. You're focused on performance. You're focused on targets. Yep.

Lynn [00:07:17]:
And I suppose what you see is is the language that people use Gets dehumanized, and by that, I mean that you've got to increase productivity. You're working at 85 percent. You know, we need to get you up to a 100%, but, ideally, we want to really, you know, push that to a 120%. And I think when you're talking in that inanimate way about performance, I think you lose the sense that, actually, what we're talking about is People having to push themselves that much further, and I think the whole focus on Targets and what we have to achieve within the NHS, the language gets dehumanized, and I think then there's there's probably some conflict amongst our senior leaders about what the ask is for those, and I think that could cause, you know, I hope it causes them some dilemmas in terms of what they're asking. But in terms of that sense of Talking about hospitals or organizations and performance and beds and things, I think it's Easy to lose sight that actually we're asking people because the NHS is very much a people organization. In the 80% of the budget of the NHS is workforce, is people, so I think That dehumanization must have some kind of effect on people's self awareness, you know, because I I think people wouldn't use some of the language if they were that self aware. I think that gets translated into a very Task focused approach in terms of getting things done, and you can see then That the ripples of how that impacts on individuals, on teams, on different tiers of the organization can be very negative and Certainly would have a negative effect in terms of staff experience. If we go back to the staff experience as the most Important thing to delivering best care, then it means that, you know, our clinicians are working with With these dilemmas that they've got pressures in terms of targets and the performance, but they've got people out there that need our care that they've been very compassionate towards, and their levels of self awareness and focus is on doing the best for that 1 individual, where the Organizational line is about the wide performance, so I think that causes lots of tension, Dilemmas, conflicts within people's working lives.

Nia Thomas [00:10:03]:
So interesting when you use the phrases Productivity, talking about percentages, and I've definitely been in the room where we have talked in that way. But, Actually, what we mean is we need to see more patients. We need increase the throughput of our people and our patients, and that means that our staff and our people have to spend more time here and working for us. And I wonder if part of that is That, as you called it, dehumanization, I wonder if that also gives us that emotional buffer between Us and the realities and the harsh realities of the decisions that people are having to make in the NHS now because the funding just isn't there, and you're having to make a decision about Who gets the the operation or who doesn't?

Lynn [00:10:53]:
I think you're absolutely right. I think it kind of protects because we're really challenging the NHS at the moment. You know, we haven't got enough staff. The the pressures are unprecedented, so it's really tough out there. Yeah. And at the end at the end of all these conversations are patients who need care, The patients who are waiting longer than what they should, who are not getting the appropriate care that they need, it is really challenging. I think you're right that my reflections are is that that is a coping mechanism, that use of language is there that, As you've said, act as a buffer, but when that gets translated and that message gets down to the The tech staff and the teams, then that has a negative impact on on their staff experience because let's face it, most people who Come to work in the NHS want to want to do a good job. They want to do their best for patients.

Lynn [00:11:55]:
That is something that binds us all together, That even if you're not in a direct patient caring role, that is still a strong tenant of what you want to do. So I think it is really challenging.

Nia Thomas [00:12:10]:
What are some, pitfalls or misconceptions about self awareness in in health care leadership? I'm I'm conscious that, as you said, the your role changed from being a clinical role into people management and then into workforce specific. But what are people saying about self awareness? And and I suppose I'm coming at this from the from the perspective of people talk about it. It's It's a fluffy idea, and it's very emotional. It has nothing to do with me. I I I do something else. But what are those pitfalls and misconceptions that you're seeing Out in the realities of the NHS workforce.

Lynn [00:12:51]:
I think you're right. I think there is an element of it being, You're considered the soft stuff. The may, I think the soft stuff is actually the hard stuff because I think it's about that investment in people, And it's all about relationships. So even though there's lots of evidence out there about compassionate leadership, I think the challenge is is that, you know, money is still king, and and therefore, that focus on on self awareness and The impact that people have is that, you know, if we don't look after our staff, and I don't mean that in a paternalistic way. I mean, if we don't look after the staff health and well-being and enable them to be able to do their best at work, We then lose the very staff, the very people that we need to do to to achieve all of those targets. So I think there's a there's probably disconnect in that performance and relationship. I Think the real challenge is about having time to reflect because I think there is so much on what they have to achieve and the tasks and just, I suppose, getting through the day, that self awareness could be something that they do when they've got a moment, but they're they're working so much with all the competing demands that they have in their roles That it becomes perhaps a bit of a an afterthought, and that's one of the pitfalls that we see because That could lead to more burnout, more staff changing roles, jobs dissatisfaction, and the consequences of that It's immense, so I I think it's it's not prioritized in terms of it's something that we should be Doing consistently.

Nia Thomas [00:14:42]:
I agree. And it's interesting that you say that, that the time that you need to be reflective is something that's often referred to when I'm talking to people around leadership and how how do you ensure that you are self aware. If you are under stress, you are in a crisis situation Yeah. And you are so focused on doing the tasks, You don't get that opportunity to step back and be reflective, and and that time that is missing, as you say, Perpetuates burnout because unless you have that time to reflect, you are constantly in the mode of doing, which is really unhealthy.

Lynn [00:15:21]:
Yeah. Couldn't agree more with that. And and then that leads to A spiral, isn't it? I'm not very good at my job. You know, I can't do this anymore, and that spiral just continues. Leaders' roles in that is to be aware of that impact. And, again, it goes back to those relationships, isn't it? And I'm really asking, is somebody alright? If you're as a leader, you're witnessing a member staff who is in that cycle, then people We'll we'll probably answer and go, yeah. I'm fine. Yeah.

Lynn [00:15:58]:
And one of the skills of leaders in that sense It's to listen with all of their senses and not just their ears because as a leader who's got a multitude of of things to do in in very complex circumstances and and who will be in depression themselves, then If you just listen with your ears, you'll hear I'm fine.

Nia Thomas [00:16:21]:
Yeah.

Lynn [00:16:21]:
But if you listen with all of your sensors, there'll be loads of indicators to say, actually, that person isn't buying, and how can I help? What can we do? And I think that's It sounds a bit like motherhood and apple pie, doesn't it? But I think sometimes it's just that recognition that People have been heard and that it's it is a really challenging situation, but I think sometimes the conversations will stop at yes. I'm fine.

Nia Thomas [00:16:53]:
Yeah. I think you're right. Interesting Carola Rita that is I had a conversation with Alison Largier. It's episode 7 if listeners want to to take a listen to it. Alison, background was as a mental health nurse, and part of her training was very much focused On reflective practice in terms of her own practice, the patients she was caring for, how they were progressing and improving, and what Alison said was that really held her in good stead for her management roles when she took on chief executive roles. She took that reflective practice Through her career, and it's interesting that you said we need to make this business as usual. And if it isn't business as usual, It is very difficult to find that moment of stop, need to reflect, I need to consider before I move on to the next thing. Yeah.

Lynn [00:17:47]:
Absolutely. I

Nia Thomas [00:17:48]:
wrote an article with a physician about a year ago and doctor Ketan Kulkarni. And Ketan and I were talking about The impact that the self awareness of a clinician has on the ability of a patient to recuperate. And it was very clear that if you have clinicians who are not aware of how they are behaving, the impact that they are having on patients, That has an impact on, patients' recovery time, and they will not improve as we would expect them to or would want them to. Is this something that is coming through in your experience or in the data that you've seen? Is that something that's very live?

Lynn [00:18:34]:
Just turning around that question, what what you do see is that something happens within the leader And their team dynamic the best leaders who are more self aware. Their staff will have, A better experience, and we'll have more job satisfaction. And we can see that in terms of the staff survey, if you have a look at some of the results there that the quality of the leadership, that line manager role, is so critical to A positive staff experience for for their teams. So I think this the links with me Is it's that translation of the clinician and patient experience, and the same The same evidence comes out in terms of the line manager's role and their relationship with their teams, The the people who give time, who are inclusive, who are self aware, who role model The best of behaviors who ask questions of their team, have a coaching style, we'll see within the staff surveys within their team Those those staff who have a high degree of job satisfaction are less likely to leave, so I I think the links That played out in the research that you talked about from a clinical area can be very much you know, it links to the evidence of Michael West's work about The team dynamics and how the role of the leader is so critical in that.

Nia Thomas [00:20:10]:
Lynn, you've mentioned a few times the NHS staff survey. Now for listeners, you've probably carried out staff surveys in your organizations, but the NHS staff survey is a is a little different, and it's a little more focused, and it covers the whole of the NHS. And in the UK, the NHS is a huge employer. Lynn, tell us a bit more about that staff survey so people really get a sense of just how huge this survey is.

Lynn [00:20:40]:
So the staff survey is is an annual survey. It's very much based on the top evidence. It's research based. It's based on the top that will result in, you know, a positive staff experience. So it's quite extensive. And although it's extensive, it takes about 15 to 20 minutes to to fill in. And depending on the size of the organizations, all organizations from the NHS, have a commitment to Survey on the annual basis. It's it's on the biggest surveys in the world, which is a massive survey When you look at all the NHS organizations who who complete it, one of the challenges with the staff survey Is the time in terms of completing it to getting the results? You know, you fill in your staff survey.

Lynn [00:21:30]:
There's a time lag Whilst all the results are all validated because it is it is actually an official national statistic, so it's not just something that We can put into a computer and then send out the results. There's loads of magic that's performed to to produce the end results, Well, it's a rich source of data about what our staff are experiencing, what the people who work in the NHS are experiencing. So it's a really valuable tool. One of the challenges is is that people look at the results And and going back to the strengths and weaknesses, we probably don't celebrate the actual strengths and the good points in the staff survey. We go straight to what the negative scores are, and I think we then perpetuate a cycle of staff survey results that are in, What we do well in, what the areas that we need to improve, we'll really focus on the action plans to to improve those aspects. But what can then happen is they do all that focus work on that. And then next year, not unsurprisingly, And some of the other aspects of the survey, will they not be as good as what they were the previous year? When I was in my last row, I was talking to new teams, organizations, leaders from workforce about We need to be embedding the evidence that's there in the staff survey as part of our culture. So we need to not be responding as much to the staff survey, but really focus on what is it that people need from their line managers, and to build that in to how we do things around here and to get off this treadmill of action planning.

Nia Thomas [00:23:21]:
I guess we can be very reactive to that staff survey and and having worked in organizations where some of your scores came out very well and some Some of them came out very poor. Everybody would would jump onto the bandwagon as fast as possible to to look at that score and to action plan in that area. But maybe what we need to be doing is to be looking at 3, 4, 5 years' worth of that data to be saying, actually, what What is this telling us about the culture of our organization? What do we need to change? Do we need to look at our values and our our strategy? And do we need to do it a little different rather than Focus on the to do list again.

Lynn [00:23:58]:
Yeah. And I think line managers are key to this, aren't they? And, you know, the staff The results that we last saw that was collected on a regional level, it really did emphasize how fantastic our line managers are In in the most, you know, challenging circumstances, and I think that goes back to, you know, changing the conversation about really focusing on strengths. I don't think we show enough appreciation of people and the work that they do as on a regular basis. You know, to me, if someone does something really well, then I think we should be giving that feedback and showing that appreciation in a timely manner, You know, I'm making sure that it's specific, not like, oh, thanks. We've had a great shift today, but thank you. When you did this During the course of the shift today, it really made things easier, and I didn't have to worry. I knew that you'd got that, and I really appreciate That because that enabled me to do what I needed to do, but I don't think we're that specific. And I think Probably gratitude and appreciation is something that is underrated.

Lynn [00:25:09]:
When We have people who lead organizations, and they get all those messages. I do sometimes wonder if they knew how valued they were before they left With the estate?

Nia Thomas [00:25:20]:
Yes. Yeah. We always show our gratitude when somebody's heading out the door, but, actually, did we do it when they were here with us? Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. If we think about those leaders in that case, how are we upskilling? How are we Motivating line managers, leaders, and organizations to to have that conversation about gratitude, to be specific about that feedback, to to show more coaching, more mentoring within their skill sets.

Lynn [00:25:50]:
I I think we really are well blessed with a Host of leadership development programs for line managers and leaders. I think it comes back to the challenges of time and How to put some of those things into practice? Sometimes, again, there's there's a disconnect. I think role modeling of these behaviors at all levels of the organization is absolutely critical because I think whilst we invest a lot in in in leadership development, If people aren't seeing, hearing, and feeling those behaviors and experiencing those behaviors in in organization, Then that gives a bit of a disconnect. One of the key things is we we do have excellent leadership development at an organizational level As part of national programs, I think one of the things that we have we haven't done and It's about looking at the policies of our organizations. Before I retired, we had some engagement events talking about Staff health and well-being and some of the challenges, and and one thing that came out very strongly and it's something that I've been passionate about for a long, long time is that We talk about culture change. We talk about strategy. The missing link is that our policies and procedures Don't get modernized in relation to that culture change. And when something goes wrong, we Defect to what the policy says, and what leaders were telling us was that the policy was telling them stuff that They didn't want to enact because they knew their they knew the person, they knew the challenges that they were having, And they knew that it wasn't as black and white as what the policy was saying.

Lynn [00:27:42]:
Now that presents our leaders with their own kind of moral dilemma about what they do because they're taking a huge risk in terms of applying that human perspective into a policy. So I think one of the key things that we need to really focus on and there is some work going on nationally with this, And it was a fabulous piece of work that was started just before, I left, which is all about compassionate policies. I think that's Key enabler. I think that is a game changer because we can have the most compassionate of leaders, of line managers there, but when they're having to respond to a situation for which the policy And we know we have a huge amount of policies within the NHS. They haven't been modernized or looked at in the same way. Yes. They get refreshed regularly, but I think there is a disconnect about what the policy states And the culture and the relationships that we want to engender, so there's the massive Golf in that space.

Nia Thomas [00:28:59]:
Arlene, I I absolutely agree with you. And and something that I found in my research, was that if we're looking for signposts and directions for our staff, we have to start with our documentation because you're right. That's where we go to. Whether we start with the strategy of the organization, which then goes to the policies, procedures, and protocols, They all have to align, and the golden thread has to be very, very clear. Our documentation is the one thing that anchors us all. And if those policies, procedures, strategies, documentation don't align, absolutely, I agree with you, then we revert to where we just do what the policy tells us.

Lynn [00:29:38]:
Yeah. And I think that puts my managers in a difficult position because It compromises them because they're not being true to their values. They're not being true to What they know is the right thing to do. If we go back to when these these policies were written, I I believe at a time where If we go back to what I was saying at the beginning about, you know, a command and control, knowledge is power, many of the policies are written Where we don't trust our staff. We they are designed for for the worst case scenarios.

Nia Thomas [00:30:17]:
Yeah. Agree.

Lynn [00:30:17]:
They're not designed from a a compassionate, from a human perspective, and It's a huge industry, isn't it? You know? I I did a piece of work in 1 organization, and and it was a small NHS organization. It wasn't massive. You know, we had 1800 staff, and I I was doing a staff engagement piece. And I very sadly counted the number of policies that we had in the organization, and there was 357 of them.

Nia Thomas [00:30:50]:
Oh, wow.

Lynn [00:30:51]:
And they were 20, 25 pages long, and they were written from that perspective of What do we do in the worst case scenario? If you look at policies like if someone comes to work under the influence of drugs and alcohol, then It it was heartbreaking to read it because there was no elements of compassion in there. I think that that policy change, that really looking policy, minimizing policies, make it as easy as possible to enable line managers to do the right thing because They are pretty good at that. In fact, they are fabulous at doing the right thing. You know, the best of our line managers will definitely do the right thing. I would really When people are talking about culture and and changing culture is that they don't leave out that policy review because It's a significant game changer because words and music that come from people's mouths about, you know, Compassion, and we're gonna treat you really well, and we're here to you know, we want to help. And then you go to the policy, and you've got, Oh, a totally different set of words that bear no relation to what you're wanting to do for this individual. It's it it needs to change.

Nia Thomas [00:32:13]:
Yeah. I I agree. You mentioned compassionate leadership a few times there, and I'm hearing more Colleagues who have, either working in the NHS or have worked in the NHS referring to compassionate leadership. What does Compassionate leadership mean when when I hear the word compassion, for me, self awareness underpins it because if you are caring, you are humble, you are Human in your approach, you will be compassionate. But is that what the NHS means when we talk about compassionate leadership?

Lynn [00:32:45]:
Yeah. I think it's about having that, you know, a person centered approach. It's it's about Showing that care for people, it's about doing the right thing. And I think we've we've come from Different cultures in the NHS where there was a strong focus on catching people doing the wrong thing, then we should be looking at Really catching people doing the right thing, so I think it is about showing care, showing compassion. How it comes across is in terms of the behaviors of people that we care for one another, that we've got one another's back, And it it's a safe space. I think the work that being done by Amy Edmondson on on psychological safety is It's absolutely critical in that because it it enables people to be their best, to show their vulnerability because we're not robots, are we? No. You too. It's it's more it's more about a strength based approach looking at the individual person and Been really tailor made, very much what we do in a patient care setting, really.

Lynn [00:33:59]:
It's about Extending that to our relationships in work, I'm really pleased to to hear that it is gaining more more traction, and I really hope that that just that just continue as long as compassionate leadership is is developed along with compassionate policies and person centered policies because if we don't if we don't have that compassionate thread going through all of the symbols within organizations, all the policies and procedures, then it it won't gain traction because we'll be There'll be some missing links that will be very easily broken, and people will lose trust, and they won't believe those words. And I think it's about, you know, having that compassionate leadership, the words and the music matching and then being no disconnect there.

Nia Thomas [00:34:52]:
I'm gonna ask you 1 question before we go, Lynne. How do you develop your self awareness, and how do you give your time, or how Oh, did you give yourself time when you worked in the NHS to be reflective and to to Really develop your self awareness muscle whilst you were in that world of work.

Lynn [00:35:11]:
I had a strong sense of wanting to to do things better, You know, whether it was a task or whether it was personal. So I think I've always had a kind of a a radar around me that how can we improve things, how can we make this better, or that didn't work, or I should have done it like this. And I think I've worked with Some great leaders supported me and enabled me and gave me some some great advice, and I've had some great role models in that space. I think it's also about the teams of people that you've had the privilege of of leading and working with. So I think it's helped about really understanding people as individuals and Learning those different approaches and and being adaptable. I've had quite a simple model to to reflection. I haven't wrote reams and reams and kept a reflective diary. I've kind of had this sense of That didn't work out quite so well.

Lynn [00:36:18]:
Oh, I'll leave it for a moment, but but then I remember that, actually, this has happened 3 times now, And and kind of that was a trigger to say, actually, I need to I need to change that or I need to think differently about that. And I think it's also helped being curious. It's about being vulnerable in a situation, particularly as a leader. I've been comfortable with being able to to say to people within the teams that I've worked in, oh, I haven't thought about that before. That's interesting. What's made you say that? That wasn't where my head was, so just just tell me some more about that. I I think it helps being naturally curious and to not being someone who who is uncomfortable with saying, Oh, I don't know. I haven't thought about that at all.

Lynn [00:37:09]:
Oh, leave that with me. I'll I'll I'll need to think think that through. I've been on some fabulous leadership development programs as well that really give you new insights. I've Had 3 60 feedbacks. I think the most important thing is that it's something that I've practiced a lot Yeah. On both an intentional and a a natural

Nia Thomas [00:37:36]:
I think some of those phrases you you shared then were really great. And I think if you're maybe struggling to do that in your world of work. Maybe you wanna go back and listen to some of those phrases and just take a note then that they are very Nonthreatening. They are very simple. They don't suggest that you are unable to do your role, but they do very Clearly demonstrate a curiosity, which, I think is really helpful if you want to elicit helpful feedback and you wanna have inclusive problem solving. So I think those some of those phrases were really helpful. Thank you, Lyn. Lyn, are there any other pearls of wisdom or any Thoughts that you'd like to share with listeners just before we head off?

Lynn [00:38:17]:
I I think I'll just leave with one last thought, and that it's about It's really important for leaders, particularly in these challenging times, to be kind to yourselves. You know? I think it's Absolutely unprecedented times that people in the NHS are are working in. And I think quite often, leaders and line managers are doing so much to be Looking after other people, looking after the patients, their teams, that I think it's really important also To remember is to be kind to yourself, that you're doing a great job in the most challenging of situations. Cut yourself some slack, You know, and focus on the things that you are doing that that are good because I think we all focus on well, I haven't done that, and we focus on the negatives. So focus on the seeds that you've planted. Focus on the things that you have done, that you're grateful for in your day that have gone well. Be kind to yourselves. You treat yourself as you're treating others Because we talk to ourselves sometimes in a way, don't we? We never ever talk to other people like that.

Lynn [00:39:36]:
We don't talk to our Family, friends, or our our team members like that, but sometimes we give ourselves too hard a time, and people can be their own worst critics. So I would just say be kind to yourself. You're doing a great job.

Nia Thomas [00:39:53]:
Thank you, Lynne, and that's a brilliant way to end our conversation. So a very big thank you to all of our wonderful colleagues in the NHS who are there looking after us In our most difficult times, a very big thank you from me to Lynne, and a very big thank you from me to our colleagues in in the NHS. Lynne, thank you for joining me. It's been lovely having you here.

Lynn [00:40:11]:
Thank you, Nia. It's been an absolute privilege. Many thanks.

Nia Thomas [00:40:17]:
Thank you for joining me on today's episode. Please remember to leave a rate and review on your favourite podcast platform because a little word from you means a big deal to me. You can also sign up for my newsletter on my website, knowing self, knowing others .co.uk. Join me next week when we discuss self away leadership with thinkers from around the globe, to generate kinder, more respectful, and creative working Relationships through reflection, recognition, and regulation. Looking forward to having you on my learning journey.