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Nia: Hello and welcome to the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast, where we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. I'm your host, Nia Thomas. Join me as we talk to today's guest.

Today, we are joined by Richard Clarke, who has dedicated the past eight years to unraveling the mysteries of workplace happiness. In 2014, Richard embarked on a journey to make people happier in the workplace, only to find that the conventional perks didn't quite cut it.

Through rigorous immersion in scientific research and countless experiments, he's cracked the code to building happier teams in the workplace. So join us as Richard shares his wealth of knowledge on the science of well being to create workplaces where collaboration thrives, innovation flourishes.

And teams stay together longer. Richard, it's lovely to have you here. 

Richard: Hello, lovely to be with you. Yeah. 

Nia: Tell me a little bit more about your journey then from, if I'm right, teaching [00:01:00] to IT and now building Happier Teams. 

Richard: Uh, . So, I think my, my journey to where I am now started when I was about 15, 16.

Yeah, I think it started, I've, I've been trying to look back over the last few years and work out how it all came together. And I think when I was about 15, 16, I had a careers advisor come to our school. 

Nia: Okay. 

Richard: I was deciding what A levels to do and I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do as a career.

Nothing. I just, no, no idea at all. And so he said to me, look, just do something that you enjoy doing, something that makes you happy. 

Nia: Okay. 

Richard: And I fixated on that. I, I sort of freed myself from all the constraints that everyone else had of going to the city, going to become a banker, going to become an accountant or whatever.

And I fixated on just doing stuff that made me happy. 

Nia: Okay. And 

Richard: so I, after I went to university, studied behavioral science, which I really enjoyed. And then when everyone else went off to get their graduate jobs, I, um, popped off to Turkey [00:02:00] to work in a bar. And then I taught water skiing and then I traveled the world and, uh, all these things to, uh, to make me happy.

So I was, I was on this sort of journey trying to work out what, what this career is that made me happy and did that for many years. And then I became a teacher, which was good. I did that for six or seven years. And then in about 2014, 2013, , I read two books. I read, , let, let my people go surfing by the, founder of Patagonia.

And start with why by Simon Sinek. And I realized that the thing that I was missing was a personal. Purpose of what my own why and at that point I realized, you know, I, I, I love doing the most that gives me the most satisfaction is making other people happy. So I. Decided to set up a company in 2014, an IT company.

I happened to be an IT at the time. And yeah, the goal was just to make as many people happy as possible. And yeah, that's, that's how it all [00:03:00] started. 

Nia: So what does that mean? Making people happy that that's, it feels like a huge thing to try and achieve. What does that mean for you? 

Richard: Well at the time, , I was building websites, a little, I was a little one man band and I thought, right, I'm going to build a company, which basically.

Does, that. And I thought we'll start off with making our clients happy. So making, I think that's quite easy to define. And, and then , I realized that you can't make your clients happy without making your team happy. So, then it became like everyone, the intern, the, the cleaner, uh, anyone that we, we worked with, we just try to make them as happy as possible in their job.

Nia: Ah, right. So it isn't about happiness per se, it's about doing what you do to ensure that it brings you happiness. 

Richard: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. 

Nia: Okay. In this podcast, as you know, self awareness is our area of interest. So tell us what self [00:04:00] awareness means to you. How do you, how do you describe it? How do you define it?

Richard: Okay. So it's a really great question. I think it's really difficult, but for me, self awareness means understanding sort of why you feel the way you do and, and, and why you act the way you do. And the example I, I like is I wanted to build a company that, made people happy, right.

As many people as possible. And we got more and more employees. And what I realized was whenever anybody left and people do obviously leave companies, it really, really upset me and it affected me really deeply. Yeah. Much more than anyone else around me, much more than any of the rest of the management team, any of our board members and stuff like that.

Yeah. And I couldn't understand why, why it affected me so much more. And so I thought about it. And what I realized was that my goal was to make as many people happy as possible. And therefore success for me [00:05:00] was the more people that were happy, the more successful I was.

And therefore, if somebody left to me, that Felt that I was not succeeding. I was being unsuccessful. And sort of that's, that's, that's how I define as being aware is understanding why you feel the way you feel. 

Nia: Okay. That certainly takes some unpicking, especially when other people around you don't feel the same way you do.

I think it really puts you in a position where you, you've really got to get to know yourself 

Richard: exactly. Yeah, exactly. And it does take a lot of self reflection. I think, well, it has taken me a lot of self reflection. Yeah. 

Nia: What work are you doing in this happiness space now? How have you taken delivering an IT company that aims to make its customers and its members of staff happy to working to make other people happy?

Richard: So what I've learned over the last, uh, 10 years or so is what you think is going to make you happy and what you think is going to make your employees happy is not necessarily the [00:06:00]truth. So what I'm doing now is I'm, I speaking to companies or teams, teams within companies and educating them.

What's actually. Makes people happy. That's the first thing, right? These are the, it's not pizzas. It's not perks. It's pay a little bit, but not as much as you think it is. These are the areas that actually do make your teams happy. Um, teach them how to assess what they're already doing well and what needs improvement and then showing them how they can actually do that.

And we're doing that through sort of tiny behavioral nudges, little, little things, little changes they can make to the workplace that will actually move the needle a little bit. 

Nia: Give us an example of what those little nudges might be. 

Richard: Okay. So the one that people tend to like the most is, is an example of changing your coffee machine.

Okay. Right. So, many years ago when we started our, uh, started our company, we bought a really posh espresso machine for our, for our staff, right?. And we bought lots of different flavored [00:07:00]capsules and if they wanted a coffee, go make a coffee very quickly, because you can do that within the espresso machines and then pop back to the desk and drink it.

And then one of our staff said, we want to have fresh coffee. We want to have our own freshly ground coffee. And so we bought them one of those mocha pots. They're this sort of hexagonal big pots that you put on the stove, right? We bought a really big one that made 12 cups of coffee. 

Nia: It 

Richard: was a 30 euro investment.

We're in Spain. So a 30 euro investment. And what we found was as soon as that person went up and made coffee, put it on the hob, five minutes later, be ready. He'd then send a message on our Slack group saying, yeah, coffee's ready. Anybody want a coffee? And what would happen with 10, 12 people would go up to the kitchen.

So it was on a different floor, go up to the kitchen. They'd make their coffee. They'd hang around together for five, 10, 15 minutes, chatting, have their coffees. And then pop back to their desk. And we found that they started forming groups together and they started spending more [00:08:00] time socially together.

And interestingly, a month later, the tea drinkers came and said, can we buy them a teapot? So we bought a big teapot for them and the same thing happened. So tiny little changes like that. So if you're struggling with community or your team getting together, building opportunities where they can just subconsciously spend more time together and build those relationships.

Nia: Yeah. It goes to show it's not always about the coffee, is it? 

Richard: No, , no. 

Nia: There appears to be a link between self awareness and happiness in that case. Yeah. Because I think Trying to define happiness is, is very difficult because it's, it's subjective. And unless you have self awareness, you don't know what happiness means for you.

When you're working with your clients, how, how do you work on that self awareness to get to the point where they understand what does happiness mean for me? 

Richard: It's really difficult. Okay. But you can ask someone, are you happy at work? Right. And [00:09:00] most people can say, yes, I'm happy or no, I'm not happy. Right.

Or more or less. But then if you ask them why they're not happy, they often find it really difficult to articulate why it might be. I don't like my boss or it works boring or something, but they don't really know the real , reason why. So , by educating people, by showing them what they're are actually the drivers of happiness in the workplace, whether it's feeling of safety, whether it's a feeling community, sense of belonging and stuff like that, giving them the tools, the sort of prompts that they can look at.

They can then look at their own work. Or their , workplace. And then they can think that one applies to me. Okay. So it's me. I'm lacking a sense of purpose. And before I started this company, I had many jobs, right? I, it's comical the amount of jobs I had. Um, and I never really realized, I knew I wasn't like totally happy.

I enjoyed some of the jobs a lot, right? A [00:10:00] lot like teaching water skiing in Turkey. Yeah. 

Nia: Yeah. What's not to enjoy? Yeah. 

Richard: Yeah. You think that's perfect. Right. But after a year, I just didn't want to do it anymore. And, and I didn't know why. And then I moved on into something else.

And on reflection, it's because I think I didn't have a sense of purpose. There was no sense of, there's no way, no way I could go in that job. I was going to be a water ski instructor for the rest of my life. I couldn't go and whatever, start a water ski school or something like that. .

But , helping people understand what are the drivers of happiness so that they can reflect on themselves.. 

Nia: When you are thinking about, you've, you've described it a few times that it's trying to find that sense of purpose or whatever it might be. And I'm interested that you mentioned your career as advisor, it feels like this sense of purpose.

It, had you known about this a lot sooner, maybe if that careers advisor had said happiness and purpose. Yeah. Do you think that would have [00:11:00] made a difference way back then so that you didn't maybe have all of these different careers or do you think you would have tested them all out? 

Richard: at 15, 16, you think, you know, everything and it probably wouldn't have made any difference at all.

Maybe if I'd have heard it at 30, but you know, I think I needed to have lived all these things and experienced and everything. And because for me, it's not just purpose. Purpose is a massive, massively important for me. Right. And it's not so important for some people, but for me, it's really important. Also community is like key for me as well.

I need to feel part of a team. Um, years ago when I, I started remote working 2012, 2010, before it became a thing, yeah, I was as miserable as anything. It was, it's horrible. I, I need a team around me. I need personal connections. 

Nia: I guess that. Definitely leads to a need for that self awareness because now, you know, purpose now, you know, community.

And I'm sure there are lots of people in the world of work that, that aren't in that position yet. [00:12:00]

Richard: Oh, 100%. Yeah. Really important that you understand what it is you need. And look, I was working in my company for eight years, two years ago. I stepped away, I handed the reins of CEO to someone else and I started this work I'm doing now.

And. I felt really driven by it. I thought this is my purpose. I actually love it, but it, I, there was something missing. And then once I realized, you know what I'm missing, I'm missing the community. I'm totally missing, I'm doing it by yourself. It's quite a lonely existence now for some that's absolutely fine.

But for me, yeah, it doesn't, it didn't work. So. I went back to my office and I now go in twice a week and hang out with the, with the guys.

Nia: Oh, right. Okay. So you've always created a, um, a multi working space just, just because you happen to be in the right place at the right time. Oh, that's an interesting idea.

Yeah. What roles do you think that that [00:13:00] leaders have in creating happiness in the workplace. 

Richard: So I don't think it's the responsibility of leaders to make people happy. Cause if you can't, you can't make somebody happy. Yeah. You they've, they've got their own, their own life and their own needs.

Um, but what you can do is you can create. An environment where you maximize the chances of, of them being happy in your workspace. There's a book called, , the happiness index by Matthew Phelan. He, he wrote, , he's, he's owned a company called the happiness index that, that measures people's employee engagement and happiness.

And it's a really good analogy that he uses. He says, it's being like a gardener. A gardener , can sow the seeds, but he can't guarantee that they'll all grow into good plants. But what he can do is maximize the chances. He can water them the optimal amount. He can provide the right amount of, sunlight, et cetera.

And I think that's the important, that's the role of a leader. To create the environment where, yeah, you maximize the chances of people [00:14:00] being happy. 

Nia: And in terms of creating that environment, I, I guess it's different for different industries, different people. And I, what is your take on, on leaders having to work out what that environment means for their people?

Richard: Yeah, you're completely right. One, it's different for everybody and two, it'll change during your life as well. So when you were younger, what's important to you is you're going to progress in your career. You're going to learn things. And when you start to have kids and forties, fifties, then autonomy, that you have more control over your, your work environment that becomes more important.

And then , different companies. I've worked with a. Work with a charity recently, and purpose is really, really important to them. So they 

Nia: have 

Richard: to big, big drivers, you have to make sure the right people, and then even within teams, within companies, you see that they're, that they have different needs.

 So the way I do it is I, I give them a load of prompts and, and say, right, what are you doing?

, does your team [00:15:00] feel connected? Does your team, um, it's, it's slightly more subtle than that. Do they feel they have a, future in the company and stuff like that. And then you can work out what, , your team's needs. But honestly, the best way to do it is through one to one conversations.

, and once you've built up, , A good relationship with your staff, you can work out what their needs are, um, on an individual level and on a team level, you'll, you'll tend to find out that in the company or in a team, there'll be broadly similar needs. But each individual will be different. 

Nia: As a leader, adaptability is going to be very important in that because when somebody does leave and somebody new joins what they may need, it might be different. So there may be some elements of commonality, but if you're going to make sure that as an individual, that they are in.

 The right place to, to be happy , to meet their needs. Then you're going to have to get to know that person from the beginning, and you're going to have to start again with somebody new. 

Richard: Exactly. . But , I think the basic is you create an environment of, of trust, um, environment where people feel [00:16:00] safe, right?

That's really, really important. Um, once you get those, the sort of the basics in there. Yeah. And you can then, then look at, the specifics, but, when a new person comes into a company, the key thing is that they need to feel safe in there and that they can speak their mind and that they can give opinions.

And that's the key thing for new people. 

Nia: Are you a chief executive or a senior leader within your organisation? If so, it would be great to have you join me on the podcast to share your journey, experiences and light bulb moments along the way. Drop me an email at info at knowingselfknowingothers. co. uk if you'd be interested in having a conversation. 

Question that I ask, uh, guests quite often on the podcast is this idea about whether people at the most strategic level of organizations have more self awareness than people at other levels.

Is that something that you've observed? Do you [00:17:00] agree with that? Would you say that that is the case or is that not the case? 

Richard: Well, okay so work with lots of different people and yeah, probably they're more aware of how they appear to other people. Definitely. I think the higher up they know how their actions are interpreted. The sort of more junior people, the sort of new managers aren't aware of how their actions appear to other people as they move up.

Nia: Ah, okay. So you're, , you're drawing a distinction between maybe reputation and self awareness in that description? 

Richard: I think self aware, maybe not well, reputation of how, how they appear on the outside.

So, a junior manager, when they're stern with someone or when they're telling someone off, they don't really know how that affects other people or how, how people perceive them. 

Nia: Okay. So it's more about impact. It's recognition of impact, 

Richard: which is 

Nia: the second layer of my [00:18:00] definition of self awareness.

So my three layers. So it's reflection of your hard skills and relational skills. Recognition of your impact and then regulation of your behavior. And as you say, it's a journey and maybe people who are new to the world of work or new to the world of management haven't got to that second layer of recognition of impact yet.

Richard: Yeah, exactly. And then they wouldn't have, they wouldn't be regulating their behavior because they don't know, they're not aware of their, their impact. Yeah. I've definitely seen that among younger managers. Yeah. 

Nia: How does coaching or mentoring support that? Especially for new managers, and you'll have seen that in your, your company and your organization, it's supporting people to, in the same way that you've supported them to understand what happiness is.

Yeah. I guess that also means understanding the impact that you have on others. 

Richard: Yeah. It's something we do in our company. Definitely. We've, we, we realized a while ago that we were just, [00:19:00] we were promoting people without giving them the training to be managers.

Yeah. Okay. So that's something we do intentionally. Now we regularly hold workshops, we regularly hold training and one to ones. Think it's something. I think the statistic is 82 percent of managers have had no formal training in management. I think it's. Yeah. 

Nia: Yes, I think you're right.

I've certainly seen something similar to that. 

Richard: Yeah. And, and there's a, that's quite a big problem because they don't enjoy it. They don't know why they're doing it and they don't know how to do it. 

Nia: What I've noticed in the conversation that I'm having with lots of people at the moment is that we're moving into an era where we are Having high expectations of technology.

So it's sort of a, an uber technical and technological requirements and needs alongside a, a real, the only way I can describe it is hyperhumanism. And whether it's because we're going towards technology that we're, that we're hankering for that humanization element [00:20:00] that we bring, what are your thoughts on balancing those two different elements 

Richard: Yeah, like the world is changing and in the next couple of years, it's going to change significantly around us. , I think we first saw it when everyone went remote, My concern is one, one of the biggest drivers, I think the biggest driver of happiness in the workplace is a feeling of belonging to a company or belonging to your team and that sense of connectivity.

And so what worries me, what concerns me is that with this increase in AI and lack of human connection, we're going to lose that driver of happiness in the workplace. And so. We just have to realize that that's happening and, and be more intentional about making sure that people are connected at work.

Because yeah, if they're not, I've experienced it. I've worked alone for long periods of time and it's not great for your mental health. So yeah. 

Nia: I think I, I would certainly be able to speak to [00:21:00] people that I've worked with over the last three or four years would say the same, that actually hybrid working is far better to make sure that you do maintain that, that relational link with people.

And it is better for your mental health. Um, and I know that, that we hear a lot about, Companies that are saying, you must come back to work. I'm not sure that's helpful and that's right because there are lots of people with caring responsibilities for whom that doesn't work and it means it excludes them from the workplace.

But I think going fully remote does worry me because as we heard from Vivek Murthy in the world's happiness summit, he talked a lot about loneliness. So there is something about hybrid working that, that balances that. 

Richard: One thing I read the other day was, , they're talking about when, the first one person, billion pound company will, arrive as it, this person is going to use AI to be their financial director, to be their chief marketing officer or whatever.

And I was just thinking how [00:22:00] sad that will be. That one person will be working alone for years. . 

Nia: Yeah, we, we are social beings and I'm not sure that's healthy or helpful. 

Richard: No, not at all, no. 

Nia: I mentioned the World Happiness Summit, so, uh, listeners and watchers, Richard and I happened to meet up in the World Happiness Summit and that was lovely because I'm in the UK and Richard is in Gran Canaria.

So we, had we not had the opportunity to bump into each other in the World Happiness Summit, we may never have done. what your, I'm going to say top three takeaways from the World Happiness Summit? Firstly, 

Richard: well, the coffee we had together was exquisite. Yeah. 

Nia: So, 

Richard: no, firstly, so there were lots of things from the Happiness Summit, but , for those that didn't go, , the theme this year was purpose.

And for me, purpose has always been like a really big thing. So to have purpose, you have to have this , this sense of meaning they're going to change the world. Right. And when speaking to companies, when speaking to individuals, a [00:23:00] lot of times they just say, I don't have a sense of purpose.

I don't have this big sense of meaning. And they feel a little bit lost and, and sort of resigned to the fact that they'll never be truly happy because they don't have this big sense of purpose. And what I took from the. The happiness of it is it you don't have to be changing the world. It can be my sense of purpose is to look after my family or to care for an elderly relative or to bring my team together at work to make them work nicer together.

And realizing that purpose doesn't have to be this grand gesture. That was a, that was really important to me and something I'm going to take away. Second thing. Um, this is from the, world happiness report. . Is that younger people are not as happy today as younger people were 10, 15, 20 years ago.

Um, I've, and the theory they're hypothesizing this, a lot of it is to do with social media and I've got two daughters, [00:24:00] they're 14 and 16. I'm very aware of the , effect of social media on them. 

Nia: Mm 

Richard: hmm. Okay. And,, and, and how it can negatively affect them. So just hearing that, I think for me, it was important because in my life, I'm just going to be more aware of it they're, they're pretty good with social media, my too, um, 

and the third thing that I found really interesting is for the last year or so, I've been fascinated by this sort of upcoming science of longevity. So how to live a longer, healthier life. There was the famous documentary on Netflix called Blue Zones. And what I noticed, uh, cause I watched the documentary, what, a couple of months ago, what I noticed was the intersection between happiness and longevity and the factors.

Make you happier at work happier in life are the same factors that make you, make you live longer, right? If you have a purpose, you're happier, you are happier at work, you also , live longer. They talk [00:25:00] about Ikigai in Japan. If you feel a sense of community, you're happier at work. You live longer and I just thought that intersection and the, the two, these two areas are sort of coming together.

I found that really fascinating. 

Nia: Yeah, absolutely. A couple of different speakers spoke about that, didn't they? , um, and, how are you happier with what you have?

I think it was Dr. Fred Luskin who talks about forgiveness at the very, very end of the two days. And he, he talked about that, be, be happy with what you have and stress is wanting what you can't have. 

Richard: Yeah. , his keynote was, yeah, it was, was fantastic. Really, really good. Yeah. 

Nia: Yeah, , Fred Luskin talked about forgiveness specifically, but not in a, not in a religious way. What he was saying was don't carry your baggage with you because that has the potential of making you very unhappy and you have the choice to put that baggage down.

So that you can move forward in a different way. If you get a chance to listen to anything [00:26:00] that Fred Leskin says, I would definitely find that on YouTube, it's worth finding out more about what he has to say. Very, very interesting speaker. Yeah. Really powerful. , listeners and watchers, I will make sure that there is a link to the world's happiness summit so that you can either find it on YouTube or you can put your name down for the waiting list for tickets for 2025.

Yeah. So how do we as individuals increase our happiness at work?

Richard: And this very conveniently goes back to your teachings. You have to be more self aware. That's, that will be the key thing first understand what it is. That actually makes you happy at work. It depends who you speak to. According to the US Surgeon General, there's five areas, got to feel safe at work, got to feel part of a community, got to feel you have a sense of purpose, , opportunities for growth.

. And, being aware of what your personal needs are. Yeah. So understand what the drivers of happiness are in the workplace and then understanding what you [00:27:00] need so that you can choose the right job that's going to suit you or craft your current job so that it fulfills your needs.

Nia: And it's so often I have conversations with people and we come back to self awareness has to be there first before anything else can be built on top of it. You can't be happy unless you have self awareness and you understand what happiness means for you. So definitely, I think that our movement to create greater self awareness in the workplace is very, very important because it underpins so many other things.

Richard: I 100 percent agree. Yeah, I think it's wonderful. 

Nia: Richard, it's been really interesting having a conversation with you. How can listeners or watchers get in touch with you if they want to? 

Richard: So I, I write a weekly blog on Substack. It's called happyteams. substack. com. And I'm a 

Nia: subscriber and really enjoy reading it. I'll put a link to your sub stack in the show notes as well.

Richard: Thank you. And I post , one little thing that you can do in the workplace each week. But, , Richard [00:28:00] Clark with an E at the end dot EU is my website. And you can see what I do there. 

Nia: Amazing. Wonderful. Thank you very much for joining me. Um, and I hope you have a happy day. 

Richard: Thank you very much. You too.

 I'm thrilled, delighted, and so excited to announce the launch of my book. The self-awareness super highway charting your leadership journey.

 The book has got three parts. Part one. Why are you here, traveler, which is all about defining and describing self-awareness leader, effectiveness and leadership at all levels and setting out why it's important to you. The reader, me and us. Part two, where are you going? Sets up the nine directions of the self-awareness compass. The nine chartable compass points, cover things like care, humility, authenticity, and reflection. 

And chartable is a mnemonic. C H a R T a B L E. [00:29:00] Part two, uh, also explores the signposts and directions that enable you and the roadblocks and trip hazards that obstruct you on your journey during your working life. Part three, how will you get there? This describes, uh, the variety of tools, techniques, and methods that I've come across during my exploration of self-aware leadership. That you can use to develop your self-aware leadership skills. And it covers things like mindfulness, journaling coaching, and 360 degree assessments.

 I dedicated my book to those who want to care better for others, and those who want to be better cared for by others. I think it's going to be of most interest to people who manage people and have a desire to improve their leadership and management practices. And I also think that it's going to be of interest to people who've been led by poor leaders and people who want to know how they can in turn be [00:30:00] better and do better than the people that have managed them 

 Please remember to leave a rating and review on Amazon because rates and reviews, influence rankings and the higher my book goes in the rankings. The more chance we have of developing self-aware leaders and self-aware workplaces

Nia: Thank you for joining me on today's episode where we aim to develop self aware leaders around the globe to generate kinder, more respectful, and creative working relationships through reflection, recognition, and regulation. Head over to my website at knowingselfknowingothers. co. uk to sign up to my newsletter to keep up to date with my blog, podcast, and book.

Looking forward to having you on my learning journey.