The Knowing Self Knowing Others Podcast

51 Turning Businesses Around through Self-Aware Leadership with Vicky Brockley

February 19, 2024 Dr Nia D Thomas Episode 51
The Knowing Self Knowing Others Podcast
51 Turning Businesses Around through Self-Aware Leadership with Vicky Brockley
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Show Notes Transcript

Welcome to The Knowing Self Knowing Others Podcast, where we delve into the complexities of self-awareness and leadership.

In this episode, Nia Thomas is joined by the insightful Vicky Brockley as they explore the challenges of self-awareness in senior leaders and the importance of having a self-aware team.

Vicky Brockley has a 30-year background in manufacturing, where she has taken on various leadership roles and functions. Despite the challenges of being a female leader in this male-dominated industry, Vicky has found it to be an incredible learning journey. She has developed expertise in business turnaround, both culturally and financially, and is passionate about people engagement and organizational culture. Feeling minimized in the corporate world, Vicky decided to go it alone as a solopreneur, focusing on her passion for business turnaround, integration, and leadership development. She is now dedicated to the areas that truly drive her and allow her to work according to her values.

Together, Nia and Vicky discuss the evolving expectations of civility and respect in the workplace and the distribution of leadership behavior across different sectors. They also touch on the transformation of leadership and organizational culture over the past 30 years, considering changes in language, behavior, legal protection, and the impact of remote working and diversity and inclusion metrics.

Join us as we unravel the complexities of self-awareness and leadership, and gain a deeper understanding of embracing every opportunity and seeking alignment in our career choices for job satisfaction and growth.

Access Vicky's website here

Link with Vicky on LinkedIn here

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Thanks for joining me on my learning journey! Until next time...


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Nia Thomas [00:00:00]:
Hello, and welcome to

Nia Thomas [00:00:01]:
the Knowing Self, Knowing Others podcast where we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. I'm your host, Nia Thomas. Join me as I talk to today's guest.

Vicky [00:00:11]:
Hi, listeners, and a very big welcome to the show to Vicki Broccoli. Vicky has a 30 year background in predominantly manufacturing, having taken on many leadership roles and functions during that time. And as you can imagine, being a female leader in manufacturing hasn't always been easy, but, it's been an incredible learning journey, and I'm sure Vicky's gonna tell us a little bit more about that shortly. During that time, she was drawn to sites that needed to transform, and she began developing her expertise in business Turnaround, and and she's interested in in that turnaround both culturally and financially. And she found this kind of work really fed her Passion for people engagement and organizational culture. But as organizations in the corporate world got bigger, Vicky felt that her voice was being minimized, And she just became another number, and she that really didn't allow her to work to her values, so she decided to go it alone, focusing on her turnaround passion. She's now a solopreneur focusing on the areas that really drive her, which are people engagement and culture, Business turnaround and integration and leadership development. Vicky, a very big one.

Nia Thomas [00:01:24]:
Welcome to the show.

Vicky [00:01:25]:
Thank you very much, Nia, and thank you for that lovely introduction.

Nia Thomas [00:01:29]:
So tell us more about what it was like working in manufacturing 30 years ago for a young, capable female. That that must being quite the learning journey for you.

Vicky [00:01:39]:
It was a massive learning journey. I think you've probably given me more credit initially Julie, then I may be deserved by saying capable because I guess at that point as a fresh graduate, I didn't really feel like I had a lot of skills in in anything, and I was just grateful to to have the opportunity within a big organization. It was great that I'd studied business. The organization put me into different Roles, because I guess I had a broad understanding from my studies. I guess 30 years ago, and this might come as no surprise to anybody the behaviors that were around, particularly as a young female, And necessarily what the behaviors would be now in an organization for young yeah. For a young female starting out, there were inappropriate comments. There was inappropriate touching in the corridor and little Tap on your bum as you go in the office. There was definitely

Nia Thomas [00:02:48]:
wouldn't be tolerated now, would that?

Vicky [00:02:50]:
Oh my goodness. No. You know, there was definitely senior leaders exerting a power on occasion. Mhmm. But As somebody starting out in their career, I didn't really know what to expect. I didn't really know, is this the norm? Is this the norm everywhere? How do you handle this kind of thing? And I think if I'm totally honest about it, it's only when I look Back, you know, maybe after the Me Too movement and you think about some of the things that you went through when you were younger, not that there was anything as Stream is some of the cases that came out there. When you look back, you realize actually how inappropriate some of those things were. But for all of those leaders, because generally, it was coming from the leaders, from all of those leaders That did have the inappropriate behaviors, manner, etcetera, there were probably 10, Twenty times people who didn't treat you that way, who didn't have that approach.

Vicky [00:03:57]:
And I think what I would say is All of those years ago, I was given many opportunities that for me were way beyond what I felt at That time were either within my wheelhouse, within my experience, within my capability, But I think leaders around that business saw something in me that I didn't see in myself at that age. And some of the opportunities that I was given really have shaped my whole career and my passion for what I do now. So as much as it was, you know, difficult at times and expected at times, I think it was a massively, Wonderful opportunity that I was given very early on, and it's something that I find myself very fortunate that those negative experiences haven't shaped my outlook on the world, Having shaped the lens at which I look at organizations through, I guess I just accept that that was a time and a place, and now that shouldn't exist, albeit, if I'm honest. I think it it does still exist, but man it's manifests itself in different areas.

Nia Thomas [00:05:19]:
What do you think of those key transformations that have happened in those 30 years? So I think, you know, smoking in the office and pinching people's bones as they as they went by. That that went out many years ago, I'm glad to say. But what are those key leadership transformations that you've spotted in that time where and whether that is leadership or management or even in the organizational culture.

Vicky [00:05:41]:
Well, I think you've touched on it there. It's kind of the language and behavior Has changed or should have changed, I'm gonna say, because I still work in a number of organizations where the language, I, as somebody going into that organization, is actually pulling up leadership teams for the language that they are using or the behavior that they're exhibiting. You would have thought that things should have moved on, and I think in in many areas, they they have. However, you know, depending on the leadership of certain organizations, depending on the age of certain individuals, Depending on what people can get away with, then sometimes things haven't moved on. But in theory, the language and and behavior should have moved on. I think actually one of the factors that has changed is legal protection. So I think now There's a big recognition that, do you know what? If these things happen, then somebody will pay for this. Somebody will lose their job.

Vicky [00:06:45]:
This is not acceptable Behavior anymore. The other thing that's changed is a command and control behavior. My background was in lean manufacturing from the very early days. And 30 years ago, I guess, Prior to lean manufacturing being something that now is widely available in in most organizations, It very much was a commanding control and very much do to type culture rather than a do with. The other thing that's changed is a lack of formality. So I remember when I got one of my first director roles, People were calling me missus Broccoli, and I kind of wasn't answering because I was thinking, well, they can't be talking about me because that's my mother-in-law. Sure. And I was saying, look, it's just Vicky.

Vicky [00:07:36]:
Oh, no. You're a director. We have to call you missus Broccoli. And I was saying, no. Honestly, it's Vicky. So I think this is more of a informality in the way in which we address people, also in in dress within the workplace. You know, again, Once over, a man wouldn't dare turn up not in a suit and tie. Now it's a much more relaxed environment where we accept people as being The individuals, how they choose to turn up rather than necessarily the uniform or the mask that they put on.

Vicky [00:08:08]:
I think remote working has has changed things massively from a from a cultural point of view, from A teamwork, a support, a development perspective. But within that, you you talk about the Diversity and and inclusion, and we now have metrics that look at People in management and organization and culture that we didn't have before. And I think years years ago, People spoke to people in the right way, or they said thank you for doing a good job, or they recognize somebody for doing a good job, Or they asked how somebody was because they didn't see themselves today, not because they've been Told to do that or not because there was a measure that was gonna say how many times you'd said thank you or acknowledge somebody, but actually because Just by being a decent human being, that's what you do. So I think the big thing for me is is the fact that Organizations, rightly or wrongly, have evolved such a way that now that actually is Something that needs to be measured and driven rather than something that just comes naturally.

Nia Thomas [00:09:30]:
There's something about civility and politeness and respect in the workplace that I think it is different now than what it used to, but But I there was definitely a a deference that there was expected to be paid to people who have the title director, Yes. Which was not necessarily linked to how decent a human being they were or how capable a manager or leader they were. Do you do you think that I I know we've talked about manufacturing specifically, but you've also worked another organization. Yes. Is there some kind of connection between the transformation that's happened in different sectors, or do you think it's more linked to individuals or leaders or cultures of organizations rather than Is it manufacturing, or is it a a different kind of sector?

Vicky [00:10:16]:
Do you know what? I've thought about this a lot, and I genuinely see the same issues across sectors Okay. With one exception, And that would be, the 3rd sector. That would be the charity sector, but that's for a different reason that I can maybe maybe talk to talk about. But, Certainly, my experience is I feel that behavior and leadership follows A normal distribution, same as most things do.

Nia Thomas [00:10:50]:
Mhmm.

Vicky [00:10:50]:
And, you know, when I look in organizations, sometimes On the very rare occasion, you think they are a real evolved self aware leader with Great emotional intelligence, great communication skills, etcetera. Going back to the further extreme where we talked about inappropriate Behaviors, I think those people still exist. That's why, I guess, narcissists

Nia Thomas [00:11:17]:
but it's

Vicky [00:11:17]:
now a commonly used phrase that wouldn't have been used 30 years ago because we weren't badging it back then, but that's what it existed as. So I think you've always got those extremes and then the bell curve in the middle. I do find that who the most senior leader is Within the organization, Canshape, the culture and the leadership team and the type of leaders that are within that business and what is valued. We have technical leaders in business because they happen to be either the best at fixing the machine the best problem solver. And rather than recognizing that as a key skill that they have and keeping them in that area of work, Often, they are promoted to leading that team of people. But the truth of the matter is, I think in many If those technical organizations, whether that's manufacturing, whether it's oil and gas, whether it's plastics, wherever it is, I think the value comes in the technical piece. The value comes in somebody who is able to Be in a room and talk the technical facts or when we get a problem, they are the one that everybody goes to in order to solve that problem. And that's where we think, oh, that's great.

Vicky [00:12:38]:
They are in the right leadership position because when we get stuck, That's who it is that's gonna get us out of this. I think the common thing that I find throughout business is that We very rarely put the value on the leader who is the person who's capable of Getting those technical people in a room and facilitating a rounded conversation by listening to different views, By getting different insights, by asking probing questions, by coming at it from different angles, and still coming up with The answer or possibly a better answer because now you have more varied views feeding into that answer. I think I'd find time and time again that that level of leadership is valued less than the person who can talk the technical talk. And I think often what I find within Trying to drive sustainability in business, and by that, I don't mean necessarily environmental sustainability, I mean sustainability of results, Is with those technical leaders, it's difficult to drive that sustainability through the organizational culture because because they don't know how to do it through the people that makes the people get it, understand it, and understand why we need do this repeatedly.

Nia Thomas [00:14:10]:
I think that's interesting. That's something that definitely came out loud and clear in my study is that there is a difference between Hard skills and what I call relational skills. Yeah. And you and I think, certainly, when you were talking about manufacturing,

Vicky [00:14:25]:
Yeah. You

Nia Thomas [00:14:25]:
have to value those technical skills because it's a highly technical industry. Mhmm. However, you have to have those people with those relationship skills who can bring those people together, to bring the collaborate the collaboration, the ideation together to be able to Create sustainability for that organization. Yeah. And I definitely agree with that.

Vicky [00:14:47]:
And don't get me wrong. I have seen technical managers Who were able to do both, and those are so powerful when they're able to put their Yeah. Ego to one side To think, I actually know the answer to this, but I'm not gonna come up with the answer. I'm gonna say what other people think because I have sufficient awareness, and I have Sufficient confidence and and so on about what I bring. And when you do see that, as I say, it's really powerful to have the 2 together, but it's very rare that you see that.

Nia Thomas [00:15:22]:
In this podcast, we're interested in self awareness and self aware leadership. So if I say self awareness to you, what does it mean to you, and how do you define it?

Vicky [00:15:31]:
To me, it's about 3 m's and an I. Okay. So I think there's a macro level, there's a micro level, there's a mindset, and then there's the impact on others. Yeah. So from a macro level, it's about me really understanding who am I In terms of my values and belief system, where do I feel most aligned and centered? Who do I like to be around? What kind of people do I like to be around? Why do I like them to be around? When do I Find that I thrive more than others or, excited more than other times. The first start for me of self awareness is having that real of who am I in a perfect world? What would make me feel aligned and grounded?

Nia Thomas [00:16:28]:
Mhmm.

Vicky [00:16:28]:
The micro level is then, okay, taking that, then say, right. How do I feel in this moment? How Do I feel going into this meeting, into this conversation, into this negotiation? Whatever it is that I'm going into, How do I feel going into that? So do I feel ready because I've done all the prep? Do I feel confident? Do I feel a bit anxious? Do I feel there's gonna be a conflict here because that person always turns up with a level of animosity? And it's about thinking, is that coming from me or is it coming from them? Is it driven from me not being fully prepared or not being comfortable in this space? Or is it for from them maybe feeling a bit challenged or a bit uncomfortable about what it is I'm asking or what it is that I'm bringing? It's about understanding this next interaction I'm gonna have, how am I feeling about it? Because then I think if I know how I'm feeling in this moment, The next part is about managing my mindset for that, to make sure that I go into that With the best mindset that isn't okay. I know they're gonna meet me with animosity, and so I'm setting myself up for a fight. It's about me getting my mindset in a place of saying, okay, I'm calm. This doesn't need to be A fight, I need to listen. I need to think about where they're coming from. So I really need to get my mindset in a place of Having thought through what might come, but how do I want to approach that situation? And then the I, the last bit for me is Once I'm in that situation, being mindful enough to know the impact that I am bringing and that I am having on others and actually having sufficient skills to be able to adapt In that moment, depending on how that situation is playing out, in order to get the best possible outcome For both parties, not for me. For both parties of that interaction.

Vicky [00:18:43]:
So I think self awareness is is multifaceted. And when you truly are self aware, you should be thinking on all of those levels.

Nia Thomas [00:18:54]:
Yeah. I think you're right. It multifaceted is right. And the number of people that I've spoken to about what is self awareness and Jackie Frost, She talks about it. It's like peeling the layers of an onion. Once you start asking the question and trying to find the answer, there are lots of different layers. Listeners, if you ever find yourself in a test and you're asked to define self awareness, you now have Two ways of describing it. 1, in Vicky's way, which is macro, micro, mindset, and impact, and you've also got mine, Which is reflection, recognition, and regulation.

Nia Thomas [00:19:26]:
Brilliant, Vicky. I really like that. I'm I've written that down, and I might be, borrowing that in the future.

Vicky [00:19:31]:
Oh, please feel free.

Nia Thomas [00:19:34]:
So you you essentially cut your teeth in a sector that was born in the industrial age, and organizations were very Hierarchical, as you've already said earlier, command and control. So what are your thoughts about self awareness when we're thinking about people at the most strategic level of organizations, and and we might be thinking about the private sector, the commercial sector, or or the charitable sector as you've mentioned. What are your thoughts on those different kinds of awareness that you're seeing in people at different levels?

Vicky [00:20:04]:
At the most senior levels, It's very rare that I've come across somebody who is really self aware. I feel often that people at that very senior level are there because they're extremely good strategic thinkers, upgrade long term planners, or strategists, or They are actually great at speaking to the investors or, you know, talking to the shareholders. And so they can really sell the strategy and what that's going to do to the share price and why that would be a good idea to invest or Whatever it may be. But I find that the level of of self awareness to execute those strategies Often isn't there, but what I do tend to find in the more successful companies that I've either been in or dealt with is that those senior leaders are self aware enough To know that I need to have a team around me who can actually deliver the kind of things that it is that we're talking about. In certain functions, you will have more than in others. And often what I'm finding is there's So many occasions where you look at a board, and the only female on the board is, HR. And HR is the voice of the people. It's the voice that regulates Behaviors, it's the voice that makes sure that we're continuing to look after the people.

Vicky [00:21:45]:
Just by making it to being the CEO does not mean They are the most evolved leader with the highest level of self awareness and the biggest EQ out there. It just means that actually, They might be very smart, might be very strategic, and get their results through their team rather than because they are bringing the full package themselves.

Nia Thomas [00:22:10]:
That's very interesting. My background is public sector and now charitable sector and all of my research and lots of my guests have come from that sector, And they say the same thing about strategic level leaders, and I I didn't know whether you would say the same from a, manufacturing sector. So it's very interesting that there is such commonality around strategic level leaders Not being sufficiently self aware, so I guess that means we need to keep talking about it and keep writing about it and keep podcasting about it.

Vicky [00:22:42]:
No. We absolutely do.

Nia Thomas [00:22:44]:
So even though, manufacturing is where you began your career, you've also worked in other sectors. You mentioned the charitable sector, but you've also worked In oil and gas Yeah. But are there any leadership commonalities that you spotted across those, different sectors, but nevertheless, there may be some commonality.

Vicky [00:23:04]:
I think there's very much commonality in What I would say, you know, if I take manufacturing, if I take oil and gas, I know the technical industries that that I've worked in, And even, I'll spend some time within within distribution. Throughout those, I see lots and lots of similarities. When I go into those kind of businesses, Typically, I'm finding the same kind of things, you know. So we talk about technical leaders being promoted, people not looking after, people are process, but we have great problem solvers. So we have people who love to step up as being the hero, Love for a big problem, and this is the answer, and, you know, don't I look great and and so on. But I think there is Very much a driver on the result. The real focus is on either the numbers, Whether that's inefficiency, whether it's a profitability, whatever it may be. So it's on the delivery of the numbers.

Vicky [00:24:05]:
Or if I'm making something, it's on the delivery of the product at the right quality. It's very much around that. And in order to do that, you need to have a management of available resources. I often find that there is a Cost element that mean that people are always looking at, can I do more with less, or am I getting the most out of that person, or If I invest in this, can we do something different? Can we do something, better? So there's always a focus on The task and using available resources in order to do that. By comparison, I've I've I've done some, charity work. And what I found is that there appears to be less focus on your available resource. And actually, what could I do with that available resource to get a better outcome? And what I mean by that is when I've gone to to various organizations as a volunteer so the people who I'm volunteering with can see that I have a detailed background where I understand people. I understand leadership.

Vicky [00:25:22]:
I understand processes. I understand how to make money. And somebody would say to me, can you fold those clothes in the corner, or can you put that food parcel together? One example, I worked for a For a charity for youth homelessness. And eventually, I just thought you could get so much more out of me. And I asked To have a meeting with the CEO, and I just went to him and I said, look. You've got me. I'm I'm committing to this for the next 6 months. So, Really, is there something that would add value? Because I I wanted to come here to add value, and I think I can do more for you.

Vicky [00:26:01]:
So I ended up working in a young offenders institute, writing resettlement training program For them, then getting some government funding for them to run this program and then rolling out The program because in order to get the funding, we needed to establish whether it was 1 on 1 training with the offenders or 1 on 2, 1 on 4. In that 6 months, I wrote the program, got the funding, rolled out the training, and and so on, and and then left and gave them something back. Now had I not Facilitated that conversation, I felt there was nobody within the charitable sector, and that was just one example, but I've seen it elsewhere, who is actually looking at the people who were coming through the door and thinking, is there something more challenging I can give them That is really gonna move this organization forward even if it is for a limited period of time. So that for me is the gap that I don't think people are looking sufficiently at the resources And at the tasks that could be allocated to those resources.

Nia Thomas [00:27:14]:
Musk, there is something about Talent and skill management, certainly within the volunteer workforce that you've spotted, and and that's quite interesting. And I think There will be lots of people in charities thinking if only they had the resources to be able to deploy members of their Corporate team to be able to identify those skills within their volunteers, they would love to. And I think sometimes it does come from the volunteers having to to, share their skills to be able to feed up to the organization to say, maybe I can volunteer and do something different. But but that's that's a really interesting observation. Explain to us a little bit about what you do when you go into organizations to help them turn around.

Vicky [00:27:57]:
Often, I would either be approached by the CEO or the MD or quite often now, actually, it's by investors who think I bought this, and it's not performing how I how I want it to perform. The numbers aren't what I want them to be. Interesting. In those initial conversations, whoever it is who's approached me generally will have an idea of Can you come in and can you have a look at this particular area? Because I think we have this particular problem. They would tend to point me in a direction. What I've realized is more often than not, That initial conversation and what they think is wrong is not actually the root of the problem. Yeah. Okay.

Vicky [00:28:47]:
The reason for that is that people are often looking at the output in order to establish what the problem is, I e, The profit and loss. So they're looking at a set of numbers in isolation to say that number doesn't look right or doesn't look big enough or in fact looks too big, and therefore, that's what the problem is. But actually, the root of the problem is generally somewhere else. My approach would be after that initial conversation, go away, Do a couple of days investigation or however long it is depending on the size of the organization, and come back with a proposal. I know a lot of people would start at the top and start, you know, with the management teams and say, what do you think is going on? What do you think the issues are? I will start at the shop floor. I would start at the people and process. I would have A walk through the process because I think having spent so much of my career looking at process, you can often Look at a process, talk to people who are running a process, and know what's right and what's wrong with it quite quickly. I will talk To as many people as I possibly can.

Vicky [00:29:58]:
Because I find that often within an organization, people know what's wrong. We just haven't bothered to ask them.

Nia Thomas [00:30:07]:
So

Vicky [00:30:08]:
the more people I can speak to, the more threads that I can get To pull on. And often after a few conversations, there'll be a common theme coming up, which I can then, in subsequent conversations, Pull at that particular theme, I'll start working at a shop floor level through the processes, and then I would work my way up Through maybe some of the management team, and then I would look at the numbers. I find that that approach works better for me because if you start By looking at the numbers, it can lead to you having a predetermined Outcome that isn't necessarily the right one. So an example, recently, I was working and a CEO said to me, you know, we just don't have the best leadership Teens, we're just having jobs for the boys. We're not getting rid of people. We've improved efficiencies. We've just got too many people. My labor bill's too high.

Vicky [00:31:06]:
Can you have a look at the organization structure, change the org design, and get rid of some people? That was his assessment based on the numbers. When I looked At the processes, talk to the people. The problem was that the quality was out of control, absolutely out of control, And nobody was working on measuring it, looking at fixing it. In essence, people were making things 2 and 3 times. Yes. The labor costs were incredibly high, but that wasn't because we had too many people. It was because we weren't in control of the process of Good quality and making things right first time. Had I just gone off with his guidance, I could have quite easily done an organization design with much fewer people.

Vicky [00:31:52]:
But ultimately, it would have cost him much, much more in the business because we would have just let more customers down with more pure quality. So I never trust the initial instruction that I'm given. I always say to the client, I need to go look, See and find out for myself. I'm very lucky in quickly being able to join those dots and see where the issue is. And then for me, it's about putting together a very simple plan that can be clearly communicated. And the reason I say that is often at the point that I'm brought in, these people are desperate and are like, Just fix everything. And again, I'll say the answer is not by fixing everything. It's doing it in manageable ways that can actually fix something and makes it sustainable and move on to the next thing.

Vicky [00:32:49]:
But The whole time that we're doing that, creating alignment through the organization, creating very clear Communication such that the whole workforce knows what it is we're trying to do, why we're trying to do it, And how we are progressing against what it is that we're trying to do. And for me, that's what drives the whole people engagement inclusion side, And therefore, ultimately, better and more sustainable results.

Nia Thomas [00:33:21]:
That's really fascinating. I I don't think I've ever had a conversation with Anybody who focuses on organization turnaround. So it's really interesting, and and I'm already thinking of companies that really need to give you a call. Vicky, there is a real push now to encourage women women into STEM and or, maybe colleagues in different parts of the world who don't know what STEM is, it's science, technology, engineering, and maths. What advice would you give to women just starting in in still quite male dominated sectors now?

Vicky [00:33:57]:
This might be a bit of a contentious answer, but the first bit of advice I would give to them is stop thinking about themselves as women. Many years ago, I was given a leadership award, and it was women in leadership. And I was so offended. I was so offended thinking, Am I not a good enough leader just to get an award for being a leader? Like Yeah. But I've managed to get a women's one. So I think coming back to the whole mindset thing, if somebody is identifying themselves first as a Woman going into that workplace, they're starting off at the wrong place. There is a reason why they have Chosen to go into that industry, and for me, it comes back to that macro element of self awareness. So Who am I? What do I like doing? I know for me, I get bored quite quickly.

Vicky [00:34:54]:
I have to have something that I'm doing that It's quite diverse and quite challenging, and I like getting people together and problem solving. And I love when people have light bulb moments, and I love creating organization cultures where People can thrive and grow. For me, manufacturing ticks all of those boxes. I think for anybody going into any STEM Sector needs to understand why do I want to go into that? So if they know, I just love engineering, whether that's I love fixing things or I love mechanical engineering or I love electrical. I just, you know, love how things work. Then I think they need to make sure that they are going into it for the right reasons. This industry aligns To my macro level of self awareness, who I am, what I like to be doing. Because if those 2 are aligned and centered to start with, The chances are you are gonna turn up in a much more confident and be much more successful Then if you start from thinking, I'm an outlier, you know, I'm a woman in this this male industry.

Vicky [00:36:09]:
So my advice would be Don't define yourself, 1st and foremost, by your gender. It's more about our personal alignment and what we need And what lights our fire, and does that align to what career it is that I'm going into? And if those things are ticks All of the way, then actually make the most of every single opportunity that you're given because certainly for me, I sell into manufacturing because somebody gave me an opportunity, and I was thinking, oh, manufacturing, kinda noisy and dirty. I don't think so. And once I got there, after only about 4 months, I thought, oh my goodness. I never wanna do anything else. What I would say is be open to what it is and seek out the people that you can learn from And embrace every opportunity that you're given and always keep checking that that Alignment is there because that certainly, for me, is gonna bring the most Job satisfaction as well as the most achievement and growth within that sector. But certainly for me, it's been the best sector I could have ever chosen.

Nia Thomas [00:37:33]:
Thank you for that, Vicky. And I'm sure there will be people who are listening to the podcast as they commute to work and cast as they commute to work and bouncing in their car seat now, but it isn't the first time that I've heard people talking about that. But, actually, Let's get to a point where people are recognized for their skill rather than their skill because they happen to be a woman, and I and I certainly support that. And When you said that actually you were given a women's leadership award as opposed to the leadership award, I absolutely know what you meant.

Vicky [00:38:02]:
Yeah.

Nia Thomas [00:38:03]:
Vicky, is there anything else you'd like to share with listeners before you go when maybe that is just how people can get in touch with you?

Vicky [00:38:11]:
Yeah. I just wanted to say thank you so much for the opportunity to to talk to you. I've really enjoyed it, and I love Listening to your other podcast saw, there's always something new that you can pick up from it. If any of the listeners, if anything that I've said sparked a within them thinking, that's us, that's me, that's my organization, then the best way to get in touch with me is through LinkedIn. And we can have an initial conversation, a discovery meeting to see what's what's really going on. So, yes, that would be What I would just like to finish on.

Nia Thomas [00:38:48]:
That's brilliant. We will make sure that there are links to Vicky's LinkedIn in the show notes And also to Vicky's websites. But if you want to go and find out more about turnaround or her ideas and background in manufacturing, then you can just get in touch directly. Vicky, thank you so much for joining me. It's been a really interesting conversation, and I really wish you and all the organizations that you go in Turnaround's the very, very best. Thank you, Vicky. It's been brilliant at the end.

Vicky [00:39:15]:
Thank you very much, Nia. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Nia Thomas [00:39:21]:
Thank you for joining me on today's episode. Please remember to leave a rating review on your favorite podcast platform because a little word from you means a big deal to me. You can also sign up for my newsletter on my website, knowing self, knowing others dotcodot UK. Join me next week when we discuss self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe to to generate kinder, more respectful, and creative working relationships

Nia Thomas [00:39:48]:
through reflection, recognition, and regulation. Looking forward to

Nia Thomas [00:39:52]:
having you on my learning journey.

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